People say what you can and can’t do to deciduous trees. Here’s photos.

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
No straight lines. No 90° turns. No deadwood. No scars. B@llsh!t, look at these trees and get some real life inspiration. These are just a few examples in one little 100’ x 100’ area of my families property.

Pics are too high of quality. Had to lower to large hopefully they’re clear.
 

Attachments

  • 4D2EB8BE-ACDE-42D8-845C-2FA7F25AE4F7.jpeg
    4D2EB8BE-ACDE-42D8-845C-2FA7F25AE4F7.jpeg
    314.9 KB · Views: 138
  • 63798A96-8D70-4FE7-9CDB-F9F7F65E2D06.jpeg
    63798A96-8D70-4FE7-9CDB-F9F7F65E2D06.jpeg
    328.1 KB · Views: 136
  • 39DC08A3-EA29-40C7-85FD-F0FC42595D0D.jpeg
    39DC08A3-EA29-40C7-85FD-F0FC42595D0D.jpeg
    311.1 KB · Views: 129
  • DA619CFB-55D5-4387-979D-C3BDFE228F30.jpeg
    DA619CFB-55D5-4387-979D-C3BDFE228F30.jpeg
    317.5 KB · Views: 122
  • 0E8EEDA1-96DC-4196-9581-46EBE16B5B36.jpeg
    0E8EEDA1-96DC-4196-9581-46EBE16B5B36.jpeg
    297.9 KB · Views: 116
  • 74309858-58A0-4A33-978A-1E2FDB692018.jpeg
    74309858-58A0-4A33-978A-1E2FDB692018.jpeg
    304.3 KB · Views: 119
  • 946E22BB-20DE-4A7A-AEAA-930FB5B07D2C.jpeg
    946E22BB-20DE-4A7A-AEAA-930FB5B07D2C.jpeg
    270.8 KB · Views: 114
  • F22378A8-1DFC-49D6-9B30-061E816FE1BC.jpeg
    F22378A8-1DFC-49D6-9B30-061E816FE1BC.jpeg
    349.4 KB · Views: 110
  • 49676D69-4D31-49A4-9B00-696626D09B2D.jpeg
    49676D69-4D31-49A4-9B00-696626D09B2D.jpeg
    327.9 KB · Views: 119

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
27,204
Reaction score
36,401
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
This makes me think....

The context of outdoors makes a difference.

It's hard to enjoy a painting of a landscape outdoors, where what is real is more beautiful.

Put it into the stale context which is inside of a man made structure, and it becomes interesting again.

So it's not that you "can't" make trees with these features, they just aren't as readily enjoyed inside the stale context of a traditional display space.

I believe this is what makes them inferior.

Sorce
 

penumbra

Masterpiece
Messages
2,805
Reaction score
3,203
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Of course these trees outside are nice as they are a part of their environment. I am one of the loudest voices for observing natural trees and breaking a few rules here and there. Having said that, I see trees that inspire me every day, but the trees you have shown do not invoke any of my paternal bonsai feelings ... perhaps the one spreading tree with the Spanish moss. They are out there everywhere, but IMHO, you have not captured that here.
Look harder and you will see mature wild trees that you would like to emulate. These are not so......
still .... its good you are looking ......
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
Of course these trees outside are nice as they are a part of their environment. I am one of the loudest voices for observing natural trees and breaking a few rules here and there. Having said that, I see trees that inspire me every day, but the trees you have shown do not invoke any of my paternal bonsai feelings ... perhaps the one spreading tree with the Spanish moss. They are out there everywhere, but IMHO, you have not captured that here.
Look harder and you will see mature wild trees that you would like to emulate. These are not so......
still .... its good you are looking ......
I meant more as in get inspired by what’s around you. Lol the pics are terrible. No framing, just snaps trying to highlight “flaws” in the tree if they were bonsai. The more I look the more “flaws” I see in every last tree. In conifers flaws are frequently celebrated and highlighted. Why is this not the same in a deciduous tree is my point. What inspires me most are trees that would be hated by bonsai people because they’re just natural trees. For example anyone in the south especially the gulf coast as speed a huge sprawling live oak (actually usually a clump) that has branches on the ground and a dome of a canopy. I genuinely want to make one of these with a live oak cluster. I think it would be beautiful but as “bonsai” it would be dismissed by most people.
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
This makes me think....

The context of outdoors makes a difference.

It's hard to enjoy a painting of a landscape outdoors, where what is real is more beautiful.

Put it into the stale context which is inside of a man made structure, and it becomes interesting again.

So it's not that you "can't" make trees with these features, they just aren't as readily enjoyed inside the stale context of a traditional display space.

I believe this is what makes them inferior.

Sorce
Maybe traditional displays aren’t for me then! Lol. Fence row trees and massive specimens are what usually catch my eye. I explained about one of my dream trees being a miniature natural live oak above. It’s not to most people’s taste for “bonsai” but I think it will be an incredible challenge to achieve accurately.
 

JudyB

Queen of the Nuts
Messages
12,654
Reaction score
18,925
Location
South East of Cols. OH
USDA Zone
6a
Maybe traditional displays aren’t for me then! Lol. Fence row trees and massive specimens are what usually catch my eye. I explained about one of my dream trees being a miniature natural live oak above. It’s not to most people’s taste for “bonsai” but I think it will be an incredible challenge to achieve accurately.
You need to study more, there are many people out there pushing the envelope of "bonsai" and what it can look like. Look up
John Geanangel for starters. He's got lots and lots of amazing examples of this. He's not alone, and also take a look at Penjing, this may be where your bonsai heart lies...
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
You need to study more, there are many people out there pushing the envelope of "bonsai" and what it can look like. Look up
John Geanangel for starters. He's got lots and lots of amazing examples of this. He's not alone, and also take a look at Penjing, this may be where your bonsai heart lies...
I’ve been watching his videos lately!
 

MrWunderful

Chumono
Messages
894
Reaction score
1,025
Location
SF Bay area
USDA Zone
10b
Dont get “Traditional Bonsai Aesthetic” confused with “Rules”.

There are no rules in art, period.

That being said, deadwood isnt featured on deciduous bonsai because most deciduous trees have hardwood that lacks the sap content of conifers so in nature it rots and disappears quickly, in a manner of speaking. Thats why uro is featured quite a bit more. But if you can make a convincing jin on a maple, go for it.

Some people enjoy the craft and commitment of an extremely ramified, flawless trunk winter silhouette deciduous.
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
Just because it is difference does not make it look good..
Not saying it does. I was just pointing out that in nature everything I’ve found disparages the things I’ve pointed out. Scars and damage are just as much a part of deciduous trees as coniferous. One of my dream trees is a live oak cluster done with the branches out to the ground. In a complete 360° circle. It goes against so many things I’ve heard people here critique each other’s trees on but I want to see it. It would be one of my top 3 trees replicated in miniature. I think it will be beautiful, not because it’s different, but because a natural live oak spreading looks beautiful.
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
Dont get “Traditional Bonsai Aesthetic” confused with “Rules”.

There are no rules in art, period.

That being said, deadwood isnt featured on deciduous bonsai because most deciduous trees have hardwood that lacks the sap content of conifers so in nature it rots and disappears quickly, in a manner of speaking. Thats why uro is featured quite a bit more. But if you can make a convincing jin on a maple, go for it.

Some people enjoy the craft and commitment of an extremely ramified, flawless trunk winter silhouette deciduous.
I love all the trees so far. I haven’t seen an ugly bonsai yet. People tend to be judgemental about the “traditional bonsai aesthetic” as you called it. All the “defects are all over every tree in my woods. Yes it’s imitation and the trees aren’t typically suggested to that trauma but what I’m saying is that scars are beauty marks.My real point is that what I like in some cases goes against those aesthetics in multiple ways. Especially my live oak aspirations and I don’t think anyone should feel they have to constrain to them. I wasn’t disparaging tradition in anyway. Just saying there is more out there. My apologies if I sound disparaging. I plan to do several traditional trees. I just also want to do my other trees too.
 

Forsoothe!

Masterpiece
Messages
3,992
Reaction score
4,700
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
I think you're missing the point. The rules of bonsai (design) are only intended to give the uninitiated guidelines for what to do when they don't know what to do. If you see something to do outside the guidelines it's perfectly acceptable to proceed. If it's ugly or you do it poorly, you should expect someone to notice. If you do it well and outside the guidelines, you can hope someone will notice and cheer your efforts. There will always be in-between efforts, and there will be in-between results, and someone will notice that, too.

Different people want different kinds of recognition. The timid want to blend in, and the avant garde want to stand out. Both get what they deserve.
 

Trenthany

Chumono
Messages
758
Reaction score
524
Location
Arcadia, FL
USDA Zone
10A
I think you're missing the point. The rules of bonsai (design) are only intended to give the uninitiated guidelines for what to do when they don't know what to do. If you see something to do outside the guidelines it's perfectly acceptable to proceed. If it's ugly or you do it poorly, you should expect someone to notice. If you do it well and outside the guidelines, you can hope someone will notice and cheer your efforts. There will always be in-between efforts, and there will be in-between results, and someone will notice that, too.

Different people want different kinds of recognition. The timid want to blend in, and the avant garde want to stand out. Both get what they deserve.
Well said, perhaps all the trees I see judged harshly, (not often in here) were bad efforts. I am still learning a lot. I am constantly jumping thread to thread and reading things from years back. When I don’t haven’t a current research goal I read random new threads to see what people are doing. I’m slowly acquiring material and hoping to perfect propagation so that I can save money on trees even if I can’t anywhere else! Lol.

I apologize if I came across as besmirching the amazing work I see here, I just want one of mine to be against the grain, not for everyone else but for me. I am honestly surprised I haven’t found one yet. Regardless I shall break new substrates and try and let my vision become reality! And if y’all want to see it you’re welcome of course. Lol. If y’all are around in 50 years I may have something to show for it! I actually may have a source for my seedlings already grouped and closely related from the same couple of trees. 🤞🏻A friends yard has some truly epic old growth oaks and I want my mini ones to reflect them.
 

DBPooper

Sapling
Messages
44
Reaction score
58
Location
Southern New Mexico
USDA Zone
7
I like some scars, a few "flaws", exposed roots at times, strangeness/weirdness, or quirky...

It's okay to be a little thin, a little thick. To not have a "properly" ramified branch here and there. I like natural.

A beautifully sculpted and tapered trunk, near perfect ramication, nice dome or clouds, etc. I can and do appreciate. I respect it. I admire it. I certainly want that at some point.

But as art does, the artist should do as an artist does. Provoke emotion and thought. But still do for you, yourself, the artist.

Enough ramble.

I love lamp.

Good night 🌙
 

Potawatomi13

Masterpiece
Messages
3,573
Reaction score
2,296
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
I think you're missing the point. The rules of bonsai (design) are only intended to give the uninitiated guidelines for what to do when they don't know what to do. If you see something to do outside the guidelines it's perfectly acceptable to proceed. If it's ugly or you do it poorly, you should expect someone to notice. If you do it well and outside the guidelines, you can hope someone will notice and cheer your efforts. There will always be in-between efforts, and there will be in-between results, and someone will notice that, too.

Different people want different kinds of recognition. The timid want to blend in, and the avant garde want to stand out. Both get what they deserve.

Not so true for several on here:eek:. These ones claim to know everything and display trees developed by RULES. Cookie cutter trees. Left branch, right branch, back branch, on and on one boring traditional by the rules tree after another. These seem only able to follow rule book and insist to tell the newcomer their way is just how it must be done. These are much to be ignored. Some use of rules often helpful however not in all cases. OP is correct as he sees beauty of Yamadori, Gods creations instead of mans. The Literati of the Bonsai hobby see this true beauty as so much better than creations of rules.
 

leatherback

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,041
Reaction score
10,993
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
I am honestly surprised I haven’t found one yet.
Looking in the wrong places maybe.

It would be one of my top 3 trees replicated in miniature.

I am not sure whether that is the aim of bonsai, to replicate existing trees.
The lack of scars, blemished etc on trunks comes from the strive to perfection in Japanese culture I would say. To be able to grow a small tree, make it look like an ancient tree and have no traces of human intervention, have a blemish-free back and perfectly placed, nicely tapering branches and trunk is the epithomy f skill executed well. Which is where a lot of the rules come from. It is easy to dig up a shrub, carve the hell out of it let a few branches grow and call it bonsai. It is a whole different game to do this and getting all cuts to close over and create just enough growth to hide the way it started its life. Add then doing this with a seedling and over 50 years growing it out: That is a show of dedication, self-constraint, vision and skill.
 

Potawatomi13

Masterpiece
Messages
3,573
Reaction score
2,296
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Remember Master John Naka? Famous for saying don't make the tree look like a Bonsai. Make Bonsai look like a tree.
 

BobbyLane

Masterpiece
Messages
3,061
Reaction score
10,199
Location
London, England
im not sure how much skill is involved in healing over a scar tbf. it just comes down to time and a whole load of cut paste.😁
if you want to heal a scar quickly, stick the tree in the ground and let it run, not much skill involved there.
 

Similar threads

Top