Peter Warren on Satsuki.

fredman

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Needless to say i'm over exited to hear he plans a whole series about Satsuki. Just watched the first and I can't wait for the rest. Here's the link for those interested. It's worth subscribing and even contributing to his channel. He has a wealth of knowledge and experience...and shares it freely.
 

Harunobu

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I wonder if Peter Warren came up with these ideas about genetics and hormones himself, or if they are prevalent in Japan among satsuki enthusiasts. It contradict what I have read from the west and from the scientific papers Japanese scientists put out in English.
 

Harunobu

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It is also funny that he says he has no interest in kurume azaleas and that garden azaleas are not suitable for bonsai. And then he shows his 'Hoshi no Kagayaki' and says how much he liked that variety.
 

kale

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I liked the bit about not removing flowers every year! That's the best part about them!
 

Harunobu

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I liked the bit about not removing flowers every year! That's the best part about them!

The thing is, it is so suspicious to me when people make these claims, or the other ones. The flowers are the most important thing about an azalea. Therefore, removal of the flowers is the most important decision you as a human can make, goes the reasoning. So people said: "Remove flowers such and so." Then it was pointed out correctly that the flower already produces the flower buds in autumn. So the "the flowers take 'strength' away from the tree"-reasoning people had obviously makes no sense. So I like that now at least people are saying that if you want to prevent flowering, do so by pruning late summer. But now there is this contrary argument that removing the flowers artificially creates a hormonal imbalance. And on top of that, he is now saying that flowering pushes the second flush of growth. So now there is a very specific timing window in where you are allowed to remove flowers, no earlier and no later.

Where do people get these ideas from? It all makes no sense to me.

Warren also has this, to me, strange notion that pruning triggers strong growth. So a weak tree gets stronger by pruning it hard? That's what he was saying. If he were saying; "A little bit of growth several times a year, keeping it in the exact silhouette you want, weakens the tree. What you do instead is, let it grow freely for a year, then cut it back hard, let it grow freely for the third year, and style it to a specific design the fourth', then that at laest makes sense. I am not sure if that is right, but it fits at least the physiological rules that plants have to follow, regardless of their specific ways of growing. How can a tree with weak growth get strong growth when you prune it hard? I guess he means defoliate it/cutting back into old wood. It is like the tree has a secret reservoir of energy it deliberately isn't using because it hasn't been pruned.

What Warren says about azalea often makes no sense to me. When I listen to Ryan Neil, at least that all makes horticultural and physiological sense. Now, I don't know much about bonsai. But I do no something about azalea and cultivar. And many things he is saying there are wrong, or are things he is confused about without realizing it. Or things he, and no one else, knows and he should know we don't know and explain it as 'we don't know'. And he all presents this as fact and in this video he claims he is the biggest expert on satsuski azalea in the west. And he simply says 'I don't care for garden azaleas'. Doesn't he know that the azalea trade in western Europe is worth hundreds of millions (50 million for potted azalea in Belgium alone)? They have several scientists in Belgium that dedicated part of their career to azalea. But he doesn't even know about this and claims that no books were written on azalea. They got azalea propagation down to a science. They know if removing flowers, yes or no, disrups the hormonal imbalance.

It is good that there is content out there. And I guess the way bonsai people go about in general irks me already. But it would be a lot better if all bonsai people at least had a degree in plant biology or horticulture or something. And then went to Japan. And then came back to the west and there were two of them discussing their personal experience, the things their masters taught then and their master's reasoning. And then have a debate among themselves about how correct this all is. Why is bonsai so much like a religion with secret rituals and magic? The way he talks about how the Japanese 'designed cultivar' to fit specific bonsai styles only, and how about you have to be a Japanese-style nerd to get all that. I don't really understand that. But I guess even in 20 years, we will still be debating the merit of wound paste.
 
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fredman

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@Harunobu I can't even comment on either you or Peter as I know not even a fraction you two do.
But Peter seems like an intelligent and knowledgeable guy. He obviously holds the Japanese azalea traditions in high regard and I can see he has a huge respect for his master he studied under...Kunio Kobayashi. As he says in the video Kobayashi's nursery specialize in mostly azalea. He won the highest Satsuki awards...multiple times.
I can't see him deviating or even improving on what he experienced with his apprenticeship in Japan.
I take it that what he says is what he learnt in Japan from his master and others...
He is a very approachable guy. Has a facebook page to. You might want to talk to him about your concerns...or drop him an email.
 

Harunobu

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I appreciate you posting it here and I will definitely watch the next episodes, if they will be available for free. I did post a comment on the video, but now it is gone. Might be a bug. I kind of know how the bonsai world works. Your advice is as good as your best trees. Warren definitely has me beat there. I am sure following his results will give you similar results. And hands on experience in Japan just cannot be replaced. But he says a lot of strange things that I don't see Ryan Neil say.

I see he got a degree in astrophysics. For example, his comment on bark and winter hardiness of azalea. He says azalea have thin bark; true. He says that satsuki azalea has hardiness problems in western Europe. As garden plants, probably true for a majority of cultivar. For bonsai, probably more severely true. I have no idea how much such an exposed root Issho no Sono is more susceptible to frost than my Haru no Sono. Then he says this is because of the thin bark. He doesn't use the world 'insulation', but with his astrophysics degree, he should have a better sense of the concepts of heat and thermodynamics than me with my biophysics degree. If you have a astrophysics degree, the idea of the bark of a tree insulating the tree and keeping the center warm when the outside temperature drops should raise a red flag.

It turns out we have a pretty good understanding of winter hardiness in plants. Plant tissue gets damaged when the water inside a cell freezes because ice crystals occupy more space more space and ice crystals pierce cell membranes. So the solution plants have is to prevent freezing of their cellular contents. I have never seen the role of bark being connected to winter hardiness of plants. And many many plants without bark survive fine without any bark; grass being an obvious example. R.indicum isn't very winter hardy because they grow in valleys and along rivers. R.kiusianum grows in mountains above 1 km, and as a result they are more winter hardy. But they have the same super-thin bark.

Similarly, he talks mysteriously about this complex magic or secret knowledge Japanese satsuki masters use to get the perfect flower variety distribution on trees. The fact is, there is no secret and he seems, strangely, to not know how it works. And the reason some of these masters are better at it than others is because they are better at their craft, not because they know things other people don't know. Similarly, when he gets a question about fertilizer and flower colour, he says he knows the answer, but then doesn't answer the question. I have seen this question come up, and there is always a different answer and people answering know for sure their answer is correct. I don't think they are seeing a pattern and I don't believe there is a reliable way to influence the flower colour intensity or sports through fertilizer. Probably, theoretically it has some effect, because it is all a huge chaotic biochemical soup where everything is connected.

On top of that, I also don't have a lot of confidence in the Japanese master-apprentice system and judging from the way he pronounces the satsuki cultivar, it doesn't sound to me he is fluent in Japanese. While a invaluable experience, an apprentice in Japan does a lot of work. I am not sure how much teaching there actually is. And when you also don't speak Japanese fluently, you are going to learn less than your Japanese fellow apprentices. And what do these Japanese masters actually know? Do they know how to make great trees? Yes, as almost all nice satsuki bonsai are made in Japan. Almost exclsively. Do they know the science behind why their method works? I have strong suspicious. Just a few days ago I saw one of them claim something he did prevented bad bacteria from growing in the soil. And how many Japanese bonsai masters still use wound paste? So do these people know how to work your or their satsuki tree? Yes. Do they actually know the things they say they know, seems like way too often they just make it up.

He also is in kind of a difficult position. He somehow has to make a living as a bonsai professional, which must be hard. If you claim you don't know anything, why would people pay you? And you cannot cirticize your Japanese master, for several reasons. So if all these Japanese masters have quirckly ideas about genetics or bad bacteria, or plant hormones, what do you do? They produce the best trees. And their superior trees is part of the reason why people in Europe should be paying you.
 

KLSbonsai

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@Harunobu since you mention Ryan Neil a couple of times here, I would suggest you go and watch the episodes in his library about azaleas. Peter Warren is who he trust on azaleas.
 

fredman

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Similarly, when he gets a question about fertilizer and flower colour, he says he knows the answer, but then doesn't answer the question.
Ha Ha this is the only bit I qualify in answering...the reason he did not answer about fertilizer etc, is because that will be dealt with in upcoming episodes.
Again...you need to make proper contact with him ;)
 

fredman

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Just saw this.
Peter's journey into bonsai. Fascinating and insightful. I certainly relate.
This guy loves and lives for bonsai. Have a listen. It's a eye opening perspective...certainly for me. It's long, but the message comes through in the first half hour.
 

LanceMac10

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Peter regularly translates articles for Bonsai Focus and International Bonsai magazines so it would seem he has a working knowledge of Japanese.
I appreciate you posting it here and I will definitely watch the next episodes, if they will be available for free. I did post a comment on the video, but now it is gone. Might be a bug. I kind of know how the bonsai world works. Your advice is as good as your best trees. Warren definitely has me beat there. I am sure following his results will give you similar results. And hands on experience in Japan just cannot be replaced. But he says a lot of strange things that I don't see Ryan Neil say.

I see he got a degree in astrophysics. For example, his comment on bark and winter hardiness of azalea. He says azalea have thin bark; true. He says that satsuki azalea has hardiness problems in western Europe. As garden plants, probably true for a majority of cultivar. For bonsai, probably more severely true. I have no idea how much such an exposed root Issho no Sono is more susceptible to frost than my Haru no Sono. Then he says this is because of the thin bark. He doesn't use the world 'insulation', but with his astrophysics degree, he should have a better sense of the concepts of heat and thermodynamics than me with my biophysics degree. If you have a astrophysics degree, the idea of the bark of a tree insulating the tree and keeping the center warm when the outside temperature drops should raise a red flag.

It turns out we have a pretty good understanding of winter hardiness in plants. Plant tissue gets damaged when the water inside a cell freezes because ice crystals occupy more space more space and ice crystals pierce cell membranes. So the solution plants have is to prevent freezing of their cellular contents. I have never seen the role of bark being connected to winter hardiness of plants. And many many plants without bark survive fine without any bark; grass being an obvious example. R.indicum isn't very winter hardy because they grow in valleys and along rivers. R.kiusianum grows in mountains above 1 km, and as a result they are more winter hardy. But they have the same super-thin bark.

Similarly, he talks mysteriously about this complex magic or secret knowledge Japanese satsuki masters use to get the perfect flower variety distribution on trees. The fact is, there is no secret and he seems, strangely, to not know how it works. And the reason some of these masters are better at it than others is because they are better at their craft, not because they know things other people don't know. Similarly, when he gets a question about fertilizer and flower colour, he says he knows the answer, but then doesn't answer the question. I have seen this question come up, and there is always a different answer and people answering know for sure their answer is correct. I don't think they are seeing a pattern and I don't believe there is a reliable way to influence the flower colour intensity or sports through fertilizer. Probably, theoretically it has some effect, because it is all a huge chaotic biochemical soup where everything is connected.

On top of that, I also don't have a lot of confidence in the Japanese master-apprentice system and judging from the way he pronounces the satsuki cultivar, it doesn't sound to me he is fluent in Japanese. While a invaluable experience, an apprentice in Japan does a lot of work. I am not sure how much teaching there actually is. And when you also don't speak Japanese fluently, you are going to learn less than your Japanese fellow apprentices. And what do these Japanese masters actually know? Do they know how to make great trees? Yes, as almost all nice satsuki bonsai are made in Japan. Almost exclsively. Do they know the science behind why their method works? I have strong suspicious. Just a few days ago I saw one of them claim something he did prevented bad bacteria from growing in the soil. And how many Japanese bonsai masters still use wound paste? So do these people know how to work your or their satsuki tree? Yes. Do they actually know the things they say they know, seems like way too often they just make it up.

He also is in kind of a difficult position. He somehow has to make a living as a bonsai professional, which must be hard. If you claim you don't know anything, why would people pay you? And you cannot cirticize your Japanese master, for several reasons. So if all these Japanese masters have quirckly ideas about genetics or bad bacteria, or plant hormones, what do you do? They produce the best trees. And their superior trees is part of the reason why people in Europe should be paying you.


Six paragraphs ripping a guy that has displayed at the highest levels.....have you ever shown a tree here, let alone Kokufu?
 

Harunobu

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We are talking about azaleas here, not bonsai.

If you want to debate me on his side of the argument on the actual points he made, go ahead. I don't know what he translates. He himself in his video says he cannot read a Japanese satsuki dictionary. That's not high level Japanese. I was just trying to find an explanation as to why he has these obvious false ideas about azaleas, or ornamental plants in general, contrary to a wealth of knowledge that has been out there public. And yet he claims there are no books about (evergreen) azaleas in the west, and that he is the biggest expert on satsuki azalea outside of Japan.

That's just really odd. If that's normal in the bonsai world, then I don't know what to say. I am even saying that maybe he is saying this because a large body of Japanese satsuki growers believe this. And he is merely challenging Japanese methods and ideas about azaleas. Which is what people expect him to do, after all.

So please take back the false claim that I am 'ripping the guy', thanks. If you want to claim that I had criticism on Japanese bonsai culture, maybe you are right.
 
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Pitoon

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@Harunobu you seem to know a lot about azaleas yet I don't recall you posting any that you have except for a cutting you entered into the Azalea contest. I would like to see what you have and take care of, please post some pics of your plants. Theoretic and reality sometimes don't line up. A person can read all the books in the world about a subject, yet if they don't do or practice the said subject...…..what do they really know?
 

Harunobu

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I don't want to debate my name vs anyone else's name. Let's debate the role of bark in winter hardiness of plants? Or pick your alternative. This is exactly the point I am making. So if I buy a great looking tree and it doesn't die, can I make any claim I want?

I had similar debates about wound paste here years ago. If it comes down to it, some people here will argue that once you put a plant in a bonsai pot, all bets are off and no basic plant science or horticulture knowedge applies because it's a bonsai and only 'bonsai masters' can says something about bonsai. You are already moving into that direction. This is not about practice vs theory. This IS theory. I am not going to argue about how he should style his bonsai, because I don't know enough about that. He made theoretical claims. Not practical ones. It's a stupid and pointless exercise, but if you want to take some of the claims made in the video and go down that rabbit hole, I will do so.
 

Harunobu

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Then go make a thread asking for pictures of my plants. Why discuss it here?
 

LanceMac10

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Well, if that's the direction your going, why post about your questions about Mr. Warrens methods here? Peter doesn't post here. And I don't suspect anyone here would speak on Peter's behalf. Correspond with him perhaps?
 
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