Peter Warren on Soil Health.

fredman

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The underlined part is wha I have been finding in literature several times, and might the most important reason why "chemical" fertilizer reduces rootzone health: Myccorhizea do not germinate, and roots will simultanuously reject the relation, both under influence of P availability.
Yes I have came across that several times to. It seems a fertilizer heavily laden with P has a definate negative effect in the rhizosphere.
Another interesting something i've been thinking about for some time, and @Wires_Guy_wires (I think it was) confirmed it in another thread...
Mycorrhizae can't be seen (or rarely) with the naked eye, as they're microscopic. I've seen soooo many photos of bonsai roots/soils filled with white fungi hyphae, and almost always that is talked about as mycorrhizal....seems that is another specie of fungi feeding on organic carbon....?
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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When we see those white mycelial structures, they can be mycorrhizae. It's just that most of them don't grow whitish ropes, but finer hairs instead. One visible type doesn't exclude the presence of the other hundred or so.
 

fredman

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When we see those white mycelial structures, they can be mycorrhizae. It's just that most of them don't grow whitish ropes, but finer hairs instead. One visible type doesn't exclude the presence of the other hundred or so.
So the only way to know for sure, is to put a microscope to it...?
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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So the only way to know for sure, is to put a microscope to it...?
Close, but microscopically it can be very hard to identify fungi. You'd need spores, fruiting bodies, references (which are hard to find) and you might encounter an unknown or undocumented species. Some organisms require chemical dyes to become visible, even under a microscope. It can be done, sure, but it's a tedious process. The only way to be absolutely sure is to do a genetic analysis. I know a couple of researchers that process Environmental DNA, they collect water from rivers and bodies of water - which contain huge amounts of DNA traces - and identify species by specie-specific markers found in the cytochrome oxidase I gene. For most fungi, ITS was used to recognize them in the process of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungal_DNA_barcoding. But I read that they also use the COI gene to do it.

Let's use children's books as an example because I think it sounds more complicated than it is. In layman's terms (if I'm using that phrasing correctly) the barcoding works because all organisms from a certain family tree contain the same genetic starting- en ending code (Start: Once upon a time.. End:..They lived happily ever after.). After that starting code, and behind the end code, there is a sequence of letters that differs between species and subspecies (the actual story itself, prince or princess, you name it). The whole process relies on knowing which species and subspecies contain which variations, so there's a need for a library of known species and their known variations (the library with all books and all text indexed). So the environmental sample is sequenced, generating some kind of book. Then you can check which book it is by comparing texts you found, to known books in the library.
When I talk about a red hood, you know which story I mean. When I talk about a goose with golden eggs, you also know.

The process is so precise, that researchers taking samples a few miles off the coast, can detect pig DNA from the foodstuff that seagulls stole from the dumpsters. I know of one case where they found turkey DNA on the high sea. One of the sailors didn't finish his sandwich..

More than half of symbiotic fungi aren't known to science yet. But the most common ones are probably described in literature and could be identified physiologically. It really helps knowing which species form a relation with certain types of trees, this narrows the search a whole lot.

With a microscope you could check connections to the plant tissue, but this poses some other challenges; is the fungus feeding off of dead tissue, or is it actively exchanging nutrients with live roots? Is it a pathogen that has entered the root system, or is it a symbiont that's at peace? I don't know enough about fungal-plant relationships to know how to distinguish this. I do know that some symbionts can become hostile and turn into pathogens depending on environmental influences. Microscopically, they would look the same.
This makes microscopy a nice but inaccurate tool. Still, a cheap USB microscope can be a great deal of fun to play with. They can be pretty cheap too!
 

Bnana

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Maybe it's good to clarify what we're talking about. A lot of research is on AMF mycorrhiza, those are on herbs and important for P update. Very few trees have those, most trees have ectomycorrhizas
And even than, mycorrhiza can be beneficial but also bad for a plant. They're not happy little friends.
 

cmeg1

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I am no scientist,or am I?
I believe a bonsai pot of soil introduces a way to create perfect conditions and practices of plant nutrition.
Were people not using sterilants in farm soils just a short time ago?
This is new science ,relatively speaking.
The good stuff like needed microbes and living plant growth elements were wiped out for fear of pathogens.
A copy from wiki:
Nitrogen assimilation is the formation of organic nitrogen compounds like amino acids from inorganic nitrogen compounds present in the environment. Organisms like plants, fungi and certain bacteria that cannot fix nitrogen gas (N2) depend on the ability to assimilate nitrate or ammonia for their needs.
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I love organics .....the slow fertilization is what always gets my attention and it is VERY good at proliferating all the good stuff in the soil...amino acids,microbes,fungi.
This stuff is crucial.

I am definately not a fan of the basic type 20-20-20 fertilizers..........Fast growth is not all that great.If I am starting from scratch ....whats the rush? I’d rather have an abundance of amino acids and humic substances to boost plant vascular health right from the start.Moderated growth.

Also if we are going full organic...why not also add the amino acids and humic substances.These aminos are fantastic at creating ion channels in roots...big time! And actually would even have to use LESS organic fertilizer too as it can still upend and make the balance out of wack.......concerning OVER fertilizing anyway.

And we cannot forget PH.What is the sense of adding these beautifully organic ,greatly moderated processes of fertilization if we still refuse to check ph of nutrient solution or water we drench plants with.Is not ph of soil and dump truck loads of lime one of the processes which can lock up soil in the lands around us? This ph can really unlock a plants genetic potential and get pheonominal results with VERY little NPK.
We also need these micro elements along with the macro elements.

Trees barely need the amounts of nitrogen we put on them.......The miriad of other elements is the real secret function of plant growth...........reproducing their genetic processes is the way to get pheonominal results.
Or just pour on the blue juice...each there own I guess.
 

Vance Wood

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The very first internet forum from which I was banned was gardenweb.com in the bonsai section for daring to ask if anyone ever pinched off a loaf onto their trees. Circa 2001.

If "the Japanese do it", I guess I'm not so crazy after all.

Touche gardenweb.
Ah Yes the old Garden Web days. However you should have known that you don't pinch anything off around a bonsai any more. This will get you instantly pilloried by the bonsai hotsy-totsy of the day
 

cmeg1

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I said it before and I will say it again.........why must the big makers of 20-20-20 also produce the fungicides and pesticides also?

it is scientifically proven that fast growth produces large ,thin and weak cell walls.
Slower growth lets plants create and have a surplus or excess of carbs and plant energy,high brix from photosynthesis that actually repels a lot of sucking insects......I read that sucking insects will not even recognize a plant as food if the brix level is above 12 or something.
Some governments have BANNED fungicide use.
They flood in amino acids to boost calcium levels 1000’s of X to open vascular pathways and create calcium pectate in leaf cells instead of water in the leaf cells.I have witnessed this first hand on my plant leaves from using this method.
The leaves are high brix and full of calcium pectate...you can just notice the differance...the leaf almost has a synthetic duribility and feel to it.
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leatherback

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Slower growth lets plants create and have a surplus or excess of carbs and plant energy,high brix from photosynthesis that actually repels a lot of sucking insects......I read that sucking insects will not even recognize a plant as food if the brix level is above 12 or something.

You might find this page from my doctoral dissertation interesting, perhaps. Not solid enough to make a full academic paper of chapter. But interesting in this discussion.
 

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cmeg1

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You might find this page from my doctoral dissertation interesting, perhaps. Not solid enough to make a full academic paper of chapter. But interesting in this discussion.
Is interesting.I sid not know what phenols were,but after researching I realized they are the good guys along with essential oils,carbs,and micro elements that increase pest and sisease resistance.
The paper you have there seems to suggest that these proliferate in a healthy plant that may be under attack by insects.....very interesting indeed.This is genetic survival mechanisms as I see it.
My big thing is to understand how to exploit this and I am obly beginnnibg to get results that show it is definately worthwhile........say for instance increasing amino acids L glycine/L glutamate......known to open calcium ion channels 1000 x more than normal(natural Dutch fungicide).
Here is something I copied from a paper where they were trying to alleviate negative effects of a toxin called Cd (cadmium or sonething) found in plants by adding extra calcium and potassium.

The copied words:
The contents of total phenol, flavonoid and mineral elements (S, Mn, Mg, Ca and K) that were also suppressed in Cd stressed plants in both shoot and root were restored to appreciable levels with Ca- and K-supplementation.
 

leatherback

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Is interesting.I sid not know what phenols were,but after researching I realized they are the good guys along with essential oils,carbs,and micro elements that increase pest and sisease resistance.
The paper you have there seems to suggest that these proliferate in a healthy plant that may be under attack by insects.....very interesting indeed.This is genetic survival mechanisms as I see it.
My big thing is to understand how to exploit this and I am obly beginnnibg to get results that show it is definately worthwhile..
Have a flip through; I have a number of published works on the topic, all from my previous life.

 

cmeg1

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I was curious of chemical or salts content of my NPK % per volume in my nutrient solution.
This is from my typical .8 EC or so (relatively mild npk)
Starter veg solution.I go way lower on sprouts and root building scenarios.Full on veg and I am still only 1.1 ec.Fulvic acid increases mineral absorption by at least 20%.A fundamental by product or constituent of organic fertilization.
I may go higher if inducing less water absorption with higher salts content to induce essential oils production to ready a tree for winter storage......only rare situations though......veg is always low strength npk,but with absolute loads of organic bio-stimulants...Aminos,kelp,humic &fulvic acids and a host of microbes and fungi.

Anyways:
My tsp of salts(Nitrogen anyways) is 20% N
devided into 608 parts(tsp’s in my water jug)
Then halved again (as I use 1/2 tsp mother A&B)
Ends up being .0164%. !!!! Nitrogen salts into my jug of water😆
Converted to EC is less than .3(very good seedling level)
Salt is not an issue in perlite✌
My water IS my soil, absolutely laden with the bio stimulants.....I buy bulk......$1000 of fertlizer last me at least 6 yrs....😆

I am not ranting.......Good MorningA00C56A6-F181-4865-A873-640E298786B6.jpeg16B5918B-650C-4F30-9AF5-6BE412D16550.pngD29F178D-D45B-4467-AF3A-C4348862560D.jpeg
 

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Anthony

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Thank God for Rodale.

As I have said before I cannot Design, but I can follow a diagram.
Beware the complications and no Design.
Good Day
Anthony
 

cmeg1

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Beware the complications and no Design.
My nutrient solution is what I think about sometimes
I said it before and I will say it again.........why must the big makers of 20-20-20 also produce the fungicides and pesticides also?
This is an issue today that needs remedied.
I believe a bonsai pot of soil introduces a way to create perfect conditions and practices of plant nutrition.
 
Last edited:

Forsoothe!

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..."I believe a bonsai pot of soil introduces a way to create perfect conditions and practices of plant nutrition."
I think that is what we're all trying to do. Unfortunately, our proofs are often, "Works fine for me!"
 

sorce

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The best part about the video is it's admission that there can be no "proof".

Watched another Tedtalk about how the brain has a section not connected to other parts of the brain, it is connected to our gut.

"Gut feeling" is real. Take it as proof.

Each...our own.

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

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The best part about the video is it's admission that there can be no "proof".

Watched another Tedtalk about how the brain has a section not connected to other parts of the brain, it is connected to our gut.

"Gut feeling" is real. Take it as proof.

Each...our own.

Sorce
There is also a direct two-way connection between the brain and the ass, hence the origin of the well recognized, shit for brains syndrome. The condition is not treatable, but not fatal either. Unfortunately.
 
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