"pH-Down" by General Hydroponics, or just generic phosphoric acid?

SU2

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Was about to place my order for GH's "pH-Down" product when I got the idea to check if they (ebay) had generic phosphoric acid cheaper (figured it didn't make sense to just pay extra for the label) and, upon searching, I found that the 'generic' phosphoric acids are labeled by %, like "75% phosphoric acid food-grade" etc, and I'm now realizing that GH's product doesn't even list the %, unsure if I should just presume that means it's 100%?

Thanks for any thoughts on this one, have been stretching rainwater to help keep pH down but am way overdue in ordering this, hoping for any advice on this before I pull the trigger! My default would just be GH's product but in seeing the generics I can't help but wonder if I couldn't get twice as much phosphoric acid/$ by getting generics instead of niche!
 

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Was about to place my order for GH's "pH-Down" product when I got the idea to check if they (ebay) had generic phosphoric acid cheaper (figured it didn't make sense to just pay extra for the label) and, upon searching, I found that the 'generic' phosphoric acids are labeled by %, like "75% phosphoric acid food-grade" etc, and I'm now realizing that GH's product doesn't even list the %, unsure if I should just presume that means it's 100%?

Thanks for any thoughts on this one, have been stretching rainwater to help keep pH down but am way overdue in ordering this, hoping for any advice on this before I pull the trigger! My default would just be GH's product but in seeing the generics I can't help but wonder if I couldn't get twice as much phosphoric acid/$ by getting generics instead of niche!

I’ve been reading on this for my own water and food grade 75% phosphoric acid should be perfectly fine. Here is a link for acid calculator based on alkalinity and pH.

https://extension.unh.edu/Agric/AGGHFL/alk_calc.cfm
 
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hemmy

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have been stretching rainwater

Do you have nutrient deficiency issues when your water with just tap water? Or is the reason for acid just based on your high pH? I looked back at your previous water post that showed you had pretty high pH water, moderately high alkalinity, but not bad TDS, Ca, or Mg. Your post also doesn’t show sodium which could be an issue close to the ocean, but your TDS has isn’t bad. If you are having problems, I would recommend getting a test should be $50-$100. If you are going to geek out on your water, you should know the bicarbonates which might be locking up your calcium at your low Ca levels (also look into adding gypsum for Ca as Smoke suggested on the other thread.)

I’m surprised you would have problems given how much it rains in Florida.
 
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River's Edge

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Was about to place my order for GH's "pH-Down" product when I got the idea to check if they (ebay) had generic phosphoric acid cheaper (figured it didn't make sense to just pay extra for the label) and, upon searching, I found that the 'generic' phosphoric acids are labeled by %, like "75% phosphoric acid food-grade" etc, and I'm now realizing that GH's product doesn't even list the %, unsure if I should just presume that means it's 100%?

Thanks for any thoughts on this one, have been stretching rainwater to help keep pH down but am way overdue in ordering this, hoping for any advice on this before I pull the trigger! My default would just be GH's product but in seeing the generics I can't help but wonder if I couldn't get twice as much phosphoric acid/$ by getting generics instead of niche!
A general purpose approach that i have used successfully is Muriatic Acid ( available in Hardware as a cleaner for concrete) 37% concentration. This is a cost effective way to reduce PH.
Very effective for large quantity of water prep. IE: Koi Pond , Large aquatic systems, Water supply for PH sensitive plants.
Of course, you will have to test the dosage and overall effect on your particular water supply. Check the caution notes for handling and use appropriate gloves etc.
 
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moke

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I have been using Morbloom $11.00 at Lowes, it is phosphoric acid based 14.175% with the added benefit of a little fish funk. it's been working great as a pH adjuster. I need about a 1 1/2 cups to drop 60 gallons 8.0pH to 6.5pH.
Just another idea,
 

SU2

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I’ve been reading on this for my own water and food grade 75% phosphoric acid should be perfectly fine. Here is a link for acid calculator based on alkalinity and pH.

https://extension.unh.edu/Agric/AGGHFL/alk_calc.cfm

Site's down :(

And yes am sure 75% PA (unsure if real acronym ;p ), food grade, is fine- the thing that's got me wondering here is (well 2 things) what % is the General Hydroponics product, and can I get more PA/$ by going a non-hydroponics-product route? It's just the type of thing where I'm thinking "it's not a formula it's a single chemical" and reasoning that GH will have a mark-up selling it this way, that it's probably the type of thing you can get cheaper by just getting un-branded, but w/o knowing GH's % of PA I can't even start guessing and would sooner get theirs because it'd have instructions on usage (instructions I could copy-over when using a non-hydroponics product if only I knew what %PA their pH-Down product contains)

In any case, any drop in pH is important for me as I've got highly basic water and most of my trees actually want more acidic conditions than most plants, worst combo, so any downward adjustment is a good thing!

Do you have nutrient deficiency issues when your water with just tap water? Or is the reason for acid just based on your high pH? I looked back at your previous water post that showed you had pretty high pH water, moderately high alkalinity, but not bad TDS, Ca, or Mg. Your post also doesn’t show sodium which could be an issue close to the ocean, but your TDS has isn’t bad. If you are having problems, I would recommend getting a test should be $50-$100. If you are going to geek out on your water, you should know the bicarbonates which might be locking up your calcium at your low Ca levels (also look into adding gypsum for Ca as Smoke suggested on the other thread.)

I’m surprised you would have problems given how much it rains in Florida.

The rain here isn't constant it's concentrated from summer to fall:
avg weather historic.png

, which is pretty sweet for me because this is my first growing-season where I've got established plants (began in late '16), and know far more than last year, and have way more material / benches for everything / better everything! But yeah we do get good rain and I'll be capitalizing on it this year, I've currently got ~70gal of rain-buckets (open-top) that fill up completely even from relatively moderate rains, and just this past week acquired a ~50gal drum (need to modify/create it still, haven't bought the hardware yet) so will be good *when the rain starts* but for the meanwhile, and for oct/nov., having the PA will be useful (am still worried about it inducing flowering, a large portion of my garden are bougainvillea and I do my best to keep them from flowering and fear that all the extra phosphorous will promote that, will see I guess!)

"Do you have nutrient deficiency issues when your water with just tap water? Or is the reason for acid just based on your high pH? "

I've never tried 'just tap' for any realistic amount of time, I consider these inorganic substrates more like top-fed hydroponics than I do 'normal containerized plants' and am of the mindset that smaller, more frequent fertilization is very beneficial so have never gone a while w/ only-tap. And yes it's exclusively the high pH, this is (I suspect) why I have such bad iron chlorosis issues that were not fixed when supplementing iron (my water is 8pH, if my substrate is basically inert/neutral pH then iron is this available:
pH related to nutrient uptae.jpg

so it's no wonder an iron issue couldn't be corrected by just adding iron....

Re gypsum/Ca/carbonates - can't carbonates be derived from the alkalinity and hardness values? And it's not just 'my low Ca levels' because I supplement calcium (use a mineral-mix alongside my miracle-gro, as well as some epsom salt on other days - don't want too much TDS in any particular watering), it's also that Ca just isn't taken-up by roots very well at 8pH in fact it's impacted worse than iron is! I've gotta get back to that thread I haven't checked replies there yet but the gypsum recommendation had me down a rabbit-hole and am in-agreement it's worthwhile and am going to get some :)
 

SU2

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@SU2

The MSDS states that the phosphoric acid is between 10-30%... in the GH ph-down.

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/specifications/pHDownLiquid_MSDS.pdf
Damn!!! Thank you but...WTF?!? That's good to know (ignorance isn't bliss lol) but wow that's a terrible disappointment right there, the product has a 3-fold variance from batch to batch?! I can't even wrap my head around how they could be so incapable of homogenizing a product I mean I thought they were a go-to hydroponic company (maybe marketing really is all that matters, not actual efficacy)

Wow so not only do I not want to use a product that's so wildly varied in concentration that I can't trust it, but I can't even rely on its instructions to use another, non-hydrponics phosphoric acid, because its instructions are moot if I don't know whether they're talking about 10% or 30% when writing them!

Thanks a ton for that, it's shitty news but would've hated to have found this out after buying the stuff :/
 

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@SU2

The MSDS states that the phosphoric acid is between 10-30%... in the GH ph-down.

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/specifications/pHDownLiquid_MSDS.pdf

Wow- there's also citric acid making up 33%-50% of the proportion that the phosphoric acid does (P.A. is 10-30% by volume, citric acid is 5-10%....citric acid is 3.2pH, cannot google a value for phosphoric acid it seems to vary in ways I don't understand)

Dude thanks again, am floored by this but very very glad you 'saved my day' here before I ordered, was literally checking this thread before ordering and damn am I glad I did!!

[edited-in: FWIW, "Botanicare" makes a stated 29% P.A. hydroponic product, looks like they're a viable alternative here - I've had someone mention using HCl but unsure if they were serious lol, so far as I know P.A. is the only legitimate way of altering my tap's pH on a long-term basis]
 

SU2

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A general purpose approach that i have used successfully is Muriatic Acid ( available in Hardware as a cleaner for concrete) 37% concentration. This is a cost effective way to reduce PH.
Very effective for large quantity of water prep. IE: Koi Pond , Large aquatic systems, Water supply for PH sensitive plants.
Of course, you will have to test the dosage and overall effect on your particular water supply. Check the caution notes for handling and use appropriate gloves etc.

Holy crap! Never heard of this before - I know you know your stuff, are you saying I can just do that long-term and use it the same way I would've used the phosphoric acid? With the phosphoric acid I (presumably) would have far higher levels of phosphates in my water (something I disliked), is there anything 'left-over' after the muriatic acid reaction with my tap-water? (are there other acids too? Someone had recommended HCl to me but I wasn't sure they were being serious!)

Cost seems low enough w/ the products that I'd sooner choose the best acid for my circumstances, if muriatic and phosphoric both do the job but muriatic isn't giving my trees a big shot of extra phosphate then that's a big plus!
 

SU2

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I have been using Morbloom $11.00 at Lowes, it is phosphoric acid based 14.175% with the added benefit of a little fish funk. it's been working great as a pH adjuster. I need about a 1 1/2 cups to drop 60 gallons 8.0pH to 6.5pH.
Just another idea,

Interesting! I'm curious about this though, I googled to check it out and what I'm seeing is a 0-10-10 product that doesn't mention acidifying/phosphoric acid, just looks to be a no-nitro flowering fertilizer...must be a different version? If you could link it or specify the product I'd be greatful (lowes&home depot seem to stock very different brands on anything outside the most basic stuff ie miracle gro, I don't have a Lowe's nearby but surely home depot has something similar!)
 

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Interesting! I'm curious about this though, I googled to check it out and what I'm seeing is a 0-10-10 product that doesn't mention acidifying/phosphoric acid, just looks to be a no-nitro flowering fertilizer...must be a different version? If you could link it or specify the product I'd be greatful (lowes&home depot seem to stock very different brands on anything outside the most basic stuff ie miracle gro, I don't have a Lowe's nearby but surely home depot has something similar!)
That’s the stuff 0-10-10 here’s a link. And the link to the MSDS, which lists phosphoric acid.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Alaska-32-oz-0-10-10-Morbloom-Fertilizer-100099251/202817750

https://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/4e/4ede1050-7065-4f2f-a19b-9d39429002f4.pdf
 

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Holy crap! Never heard of this before - I know you know your stuff, are you saying I can just do that long-term and use it the same way I would've used the phosphoric acid? With the phosphoric acid I (presumably) would have far higher levels of phosphates in my water (something I disliked), is there anything 'left-over' after the muriatic acid reaction with my tap-water? (are there other acids too? Someone had recommended HCl to me but I wasn't sure they were being serious!)

Cost seems low enough w/ the products that I'd sooner choose the best acid for my circumstances, if muriatic and phosphoric both do the job but muriatic isn't giving my trees a big shot of extra phosphate then that's a big plus!
I used it for 35 plus years to adjust aquarium water for my business. If you talk to a mason they will advise you where it can be sourced locally. It is used to etch concrete and clean up after using cement mortar on bricks etc. It is marketed for industrial purposes. The normal product for PH adjustment in the aquatic industry is Sodium biphosphate but we found its use uneconomical.For some water sources it is necessary to add a buffer first so the PH change will stay steady. An economical buffer is sodium bicarbonate. ( Baking Soda)
As far as leaving chemical issues for plants or animals. It never created a problem for aquatic plants or fish. Keep in mind that we were careful with the dosage and adjusted to specific PH ranges. For example breeding Discus required a PH of 6.5. Whereas other species were comfortable at 7.2. African cichlids liked a more alkaline environment and harder water. We always adjusted the water and stored for later use, letting it sit overnight at least. This was to allow any chlorine or chloramine to gas off after treatment.
My water comes out of the well at 6.4 so i do not need to adjust for my trees.
 
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I have referred to the MSDS a lot on different products over the years. The hazard and health information is just one bit of useful data...

I have no way of knowing for certain, but I'd guess the variation of between 10-30% means one of two things. The regulators "allow" this range due to an "intellectual property" aspect, OR, it's more likely that the product is a by-product of some other manufacturing process that is totally unrelated and they buy the by-product in bulk from the manufacturer and market it for ph adjustments... but hell, who knows... imagine buying a case of beer and finding out that each bottle can range from 10-30% alcohol; it might make finding the car keys a little more difficult when the fire has burned out at the bush party...
 
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SU2

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Gotcha, thanks!

Turns out that phosphoric acid isn't necessarily what I need, it's just the most-common in pH-Down products....have been discussing in a hydroponics forum and sulfuric & nitric acid are both used as well, obviously they'd bump up feed levels of Su & N respectively but that's FAR more preferable to me as my sole problem w/ phosphoric acid was not wanting to bump my P intake ;D
 

SU2

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I used it for 35 plus years to adjust aquarium water for my business. If you talk to a mason they will advise you where it can be sourced locally. It is used to etch concrete and clean up after using cement mortar on bricks etc. It is marketed for industrial purposes. The normal product for PH adjustment in the aquatic industry is Sodium biphosphate but we found its use uneconomical.For some water sources it is necessary to add a buffer first so the PH change will stay steady. An economical buffer is sodium bicarbonate. ( Baking Soda)
As far as leaving chemical issues for plants or animals. It never created a problem for aquatic plants or fish. Keep in mind that we were careful with the dosage and adjusted to specific PH ranges. For example breeding Discus required a PH of 6.5. Whereas other species were comfortable at 7.2. African cichlids liked a more alkaline environment and harder water. We always adjusted the water and stored for later use, letting it sit overnight at least. This was to allow any chlorine or chloramine to gas off after treatment.
My water comes out of the well at 6.4 so i do not need to adjust for my trees.


Good stuff thanks! It seems that phosporic, hydrochloric, nitric and sulfuric are my prime choices here - I don't doubt you used muriatic/HCl w/o issue but, since all of these acids are leaving behind a nute, I'd sooner leave-behind nitric or sulfuric than the chloride from muriatic.. in any event am pretty psyched to have found out that I don't need to spike my P levels (and induce blooming) to drop my pH :D

(and FWIW I figured I should mention that chloramine, unlike chlorine, does not gas off :( )
 

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Good stuff thanks! It seems that phosporic, hydrochloric, nitric and sulfuric are my prime choices here - I don't doubt you used muriatic/HCl w/o issue but, since all of these acids are leaving behind a nute, I'd sooner leave-behind nitric or sulfuric than the chloride from muriatic.. in any event am pretty psyched to have found out that I don't need to spike my P levels (and induce blooming) to drop my pH :D

(and FWIW I figured I should mention that chloramine, unlike chlorine, does not gas off :( )
That is partially correct, it does not gas off as readily. We found that with agitation f
Good stuff thanks! It seems that phosporic, hydrochloric, nitric and sulfuric are my prime choices here - I don't doubt you used muriatic/HCl w/o issue but, since all of these acids are leaving behind a nute, I'd sooner leave-behind nitric or sulfuric than the chloride from muriatic.. in any event am pretty psyched to have found out that I don't need to spike my P levels (and induce blooming) to drop my pH :D

(and FWIW I figured I should mention that chloramine, unlike chlorine, does not gas off :( )
I am curious as to why you feel it should be mentioned. Do you feel it will affect the Bonsai when watered?
I understand that chloramine requires the bond to be broken before gassing off. And I realise that i did not mention that step. We used our own solutions to break the bond , if I remember correctly it was sodium thiosulphate, for the fish water. Then agitated. The change from Chlorine to Chloramine occurred in our public water system during the years i owned my tropical fish hatchery 1974 to 1980 and retail aquatics store from 1980 to 2012. The OP's question was related to PH adjustment primarily, so i did not go into every detail needed for our various aquatic uses, such as addition of Peat extracts, carbon filtration, uv filtration, etc.
 
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