Picea pungens 'Globosa' -Where to begin?

[TN_Jim]

If this Dwarf Globe Blue Spruce were more of a deal i'd have had to have swiped it.

So, after doing some homework and getting some mixed signals, I am at a loss with what I really should, could, and should not be doing with this tree at present.

I have no idea how to approach styling. Please help -even if you think...put it in the ground & just walk away.. There are three 'secondary' trunks, i'm guessing one or two gotta go..?
How much work can be done on this now (if any) heading into the not too terribly rough winter of central TN? -For example, the lows now are hovering between right at freezing and 50*F. What do you suggest is good plan for styling moving forward even if no work is done now?

I've heard these will and won't back bud..soooo, expect the worst hope for best???
I see no apparent health issues. I believe it was likely the runt left at the end of the year, the one all the landscapers passed on. Prior to cleaning it up some, there was a barren patch on it.

Also, it is wrapped up in good ol' dirt. Straight up dirt (perhaps with a tiny amount of peat?). It's not severely compacted into stone, but certainly not ideal. Seems some kind of potting is in order. I am likely moving soon so putting in the ground is not ideal. I am eager to see what is going on at the base under that burlap.
-Should I build a box for it and surround it with good bonsai soil?...Just sifted bark...?...Put in large nursery can? I know the roots should probably not be disturbed at present, what is best approach to potting?

Any help is greatly appreciated -Thanks kindy

 

[TN_Jim]

Some more images...

 

[discusmike]

I would bury it for winter and wait for the proper time to do root work,if you remove some burlap and follow the trunk down to the root spread is there a graft union??not sure if these are grafted,seems to be a cultivar so it could very well be grafted

 

[TN_Jim]

I would bury it for winter and wait for the proper time to do root work,if you remove some burlap and follow the trunk down to the root spread is there a graft union??not sure if these are grafted,seems to be a cultivar so it could very well be grafted

Mike,
It’s likely that I will be relocating within a month or two and by then the ground could likely be frozen. This is why I was seeking to get it into a container of sorts.

I hadn’t planned on messing with the roots at all, but getting it out of that burlap does seem the best logical step if not planted.

I will carfully look at the base and post some photos. I’m not sure if a potiental graft will stand out to me.
Thanks

 

[0soyoung]

I am taken with the trunk line in this photo - maybe this is the future front.

You've got some little bits of green down there - keep them. I think what you've 'cleaned out' is about the height of a good bonsai. IOW, you're on the threshold of the classic noob mistake of taking away all the foliage you really want and keeping only the stuff that is too far away to do you any good, IMHO. As Sergio has told me a few times, not to worry, it just will take time.

Your prime objective is to get it out of that B&B muck, I think. For now, just heel it in or put the works in a big pot backfilled with potting soil so that the ball doesn't get dry, then next spring remove the burlap and wash out all that dirt/mud from the roots on one side of the tree (Half Bare Root). Put it in a container of your favorite bonsai substrate. Let it grow, don't pinch the new growth, let it extend and harden (which will happen before the summer solstice). Once the new growth is hardened and vibrant blue (sometime in early July), you can finish the job of getting rid of the b&b dirt (I'll just note that you could, alternatively, FBR at this time).

Budding requires good nitrogen nutrition, so make sure it is well supplied all season long.

Then, in late September, you can cut back to a bud. Spruce make terminal buds and often an additional bud or buds at needle bases along the length of the shoot. You can cut back to one of these. If you cut off all the buds, the remnant will never make a bud and will die a slow death, back to the node of its origin. In addition to thinning the canopy, this will stimulate back budding. Most commonly, buds appear at nodes, but it will also bud on old bare wood, meaning even on the trunk!

If you follow this plan, there went 2019 - you've got it in a bonsai substrate and you've done a minimal work shaping the canopy. Spring of 2020 you should see buds all over the place. Watch them grow. Then Aug/Sep 2020, you might do the first styling. That is plenty of time for you to have studied the tree and decided how the style you are going to affect to this tree.

On the other hand, if you are burning to have at it, have at it now, before you heel it in for the winter. Remember that the foliage is the source of everything. The less it has, the weaker it will be. Roots only grow because of the auxin stimulus from the foliage, yada, yada. You've gotta get your money's worth one way or another - been there done that; still I do that sometimes.

 

[Japonicus]

...You've gotta get your money's worth one way or another...

No kidding!
@TN_Jim These globes just don't seem to show up around here.
There's one I envy at our favourite pizza joint Evaronis, that's been in their landscape for years.
Nice fine. I like it!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@TN_Jim
What did you end up doing? I pretty much second @0soyoung comments.

If it were mine, I'd repot in spring, without removing more than 10% of the foliage. It will probably require fairly extensive root work to get it into a shallow grow or training container. I repotted a Colorado blue spruce from a 10 gallon nursery can to a 4 inch deep Anderson flat, 17 x 17 x 5 inches, only filled up to the 4 inch line. Chopped off a lot of roots, quite a bit more than half. It took 3 years to get it to return to vigorous growth. But now it has. I'll style it this summer.

So with your spruce I would do the same. Roots first. Then when vigor has returned, style the rest. It might happen quick or slow, let the tree tell you when it is ready.

 

[TN_Jim]

@TN_Jim
What did you end up doing? I pretty much second @0soyoung comments.

If it were mine, I'd repot in spring, without removing more than 10% of the foliage. It will probably require fairly extensive root work to get it into a shallow grow or training container. I repotted a Colorado blue spruce from a 10 gallon nursery can to a 4 inch deep Anderson flat, 17 x 17 x 5 inches, only filled up to the 4 inch line. Chopped off a lot of roots, quite a bit more than half. It took 3 years to get it to return to vigorous growth. But now it has. I'll style it this summer.

So with your spruce I would do the same. Roots first. Then when vigor has returned, style the rest. It might happen quick or slow, let the tree tell you when it is ready.

Leo, thanks much for your thoughts on this. It gives me confidence moving forward with you and @Osoyoung being on the same page. Honestly, this one scares me. My inexperience with spruce (Pinaceae in general other than one mugo) and the size of this one is a bit daunting. However, I am confident.

I took the cautious approach from Oso's suggestion and got it into a big heavy duty nursery pot for the winter. It is currently mulched in under the north eave with my other trees. When getting it in the pot, I removed the burlap and all loose excess soil carefully without exposing any roots. In doing so, I found that where the burlap had been tied with nylon rope around the trunk, it has developed a gradual reverse-taper concave band around its circumference that likely would have girdled it eventually. I am hoping this rebounds in time. In spite of this, in working the soil down from the top, it does appear to have a good flare the base which may hopefully serve to help compensate for the trunk issue. I will post photos soon now that the weather has taken a break. Also, I plan to repot in spring as advised but need help with a few things...
Huge thanks for the insight and any consideration!

Repot?
1. Do you think I could get away with a full bare root it if I did not wash roots clean (and retaining any visual mycelium)? Leo, is this what you did? I would prefer to do this but hbr...?
2. I am thinking of using a mix of all or one of these ingredients...if these were what you were working, with how would you approach ratio? NAPA de; Mule Mix calcined clay; Perlite; Pine bark
3. I would like to build a box for this. Do you think 15 x 15 x 5 or 6 would work?
4. When looking to remove 10% of foliage or less, what is the least valuable (or most hindering) foliage type I should prioritize?
5. Same question but with roots...is this just the usual, down-growing etc.? How much is too much?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

1. Yes, a complete bare root. Do allow enough time to recover. Don't do a drastic styling until the growing season after you see lots of buds on every branch. Not just a few new buds, but lots of buds sprouting and growing. Then it has recovered from bare rooting. It can take as much as 3 growing seasons. I don't deliberately wash roots clean. I have removed as much as 75% of roots, but then it will take 2 or more growing seasons to recover.

2. I used 1/8 to 1/4 inch pumice. With about 20% same size Douglas fir bark. That's it. If you can get similar size Perlite that is a good substitute. Key is particle size. Napa 8822 is too fine. I don't like calcined clay ( here 0soyoung and I respectfully disagree)
So if I were you, I'd find a source for pumice or the coarse perlite. Hydroponics shops usually have the coarser Perlite grades.

3. Yes, box would work. Try to chop roots aggressively, almost no bonsai pots are deeper than 5 inches, most are 3 to 4 inches deep in large sizes, and less in smaller sizes. So get the roots to where they need to be right away.

4. Foliage that is weak and spindly, needs to go. Branches that are too straight need to go.

5. The more roots you remove, the more recovery time needed. If you use a pumice based mix that is well sifted for uniform particle size the mix will be good for ten years or more, so you can get aggressive with roots and allow adequate recovery time and time to style and recover without having to repot.

 

[TN_Jim]

1. Yes, a complete bare root. Do allow enough time to recover. Don't do a drastic styling until the growing season after you see lots of buds on every branch. Not just a few new buds, but lots of buds sprouting and growing. Then it has recovered from bare rooting. It can take as much as 3 growing seasons. I don't deliberately wash roots clean. I have removed as much as 75% of roots, but then it will take 2 or more growing seasons to recover.

2. I used 1/8 to 1/4 inch pumice. With about 20% same size Douglas fir bark. That's it. If you can get similar size Perlite that is a good substitute. Key is particle size. Napa 8822 is too fine. I don't like calcined clay ( here 0soyoung and I respectfully disagree)
So if I were you, I'd find a source for pumice or the coarse perlite. Hydroponics shops usually have the coarser Perlite grades.

3. Yes, box would work. Try to chop roots aggressively, almost no bonsai pots are deeper than 5 inches, most are 3 to 4 inches deep in large sizes, and less in smaller sizes. So get the roots to where they need to be right away.

4. Foliage that is weak and spindly, needs to go. Branches that are too straight need to go.

5. The more roots you remove, the more recovery time needed. If you use a pumice based mix that is well sifted for uniform particle size the mix will be good for ten years or more, so you can get aggressive with roots and allow adequate recovery time and time to style and recover without having to repot.

This is a tremendous help!
Huge thanks again Leo! I am really beginning to feel excited about this one.

Called a new hydroponics place and they do carry pumice, $15/cubic ft., size range in bag 1/32-3/8”.

I’m going to check it out tomorrow & if it’s not all dust and tiny grains, will jump on it. I have been looking for a good local source of pumice for over a year & if this works out I’m gonna be extremely pleased.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

@TN_Jim hope it is going well. I have a large CBS like yours that is still in its nursery pot and needs the same treatment as yours. I am picking up another bag of pumice tomorrow and have a pot ready to go. Gotta remember to take photos of this one. I got so busy today repotting a BC it was done before I thought of grabbing the iPhone. I have been adding Permatil to my pumice since it is easier to find here and is what they use for the bonsai mix at the NC Arboretum instead of pumice. I sift and save everything over 1/8” so I do get a little bit of stuff in the 1/4-3/8” range. Mine is covered in buds so appears real healthy so I plan one of @leo in NE Illinois radical roots jobs and then sit on it until it pops more buds. However I may go well under the 75% root reduction. Call me a chicken but that seems too radical.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Key is to prune enough off the bottom of the root system that it will fit into the future bonsai pots without radical reduction. If you train a tree in a nursery can, and get it well developed, except never got the root system flat or shallow enough to fit in a bonsai pot, you will really set back the tree doing the roots later. Best to get root work at least started right from the beginning.

Otherwise you end up with a tree that must be planted on a huge mound of media, like a volcano with a twig on top.

 

[TN_Jim]

@Cofga, good to hear you're in the same boat! I'll be looking forward to seeing how you've approached yours and comparing notes. What kind of vessel are you going to put it in? I aim to build that box this weekend and hopefully get it out of the dirt. As far as root reduction, I'm really curious to see what is going on inside that nursery can. I get the feeling it has been in there a long time, but either way "volcano with a twig" it shall not!...this is perhaps part of building a bigger box (wider not taller) than first intended, but i'm really gonna try to not be shy about the reduction.

Still need to visit my Sister-in-law in Charlotte (excuse to get/try a grip of Permatil). I did not go with the pumice I found local for various reasons, instead opting for G-2 Growstone (relative size sifted) from the hydroponics store....planning to use this with 20% bark per @Leo in N E Illinois recommendation. There are many threads here on this pumice-mimic -does anyone have a reason why I should not use it as a direct substitute for pumice in this application? Also, @Osoyoung initially suggested a half bare root with FBR being an option. If I were to get in there and see some significant root health issues, would this be more cause to HBR or more reason to FBR out of the field dirt?

 

[WNC Bonsai]

If you plan on using Growstone and can find it better get all you can buy fast. I looked up their website and it expired on 2/5/19. So I called a couple phone numbers listed on an MDS and the first one was an incorrect number. The Alt number got me another answer and he said that although the comapny is not dead it is on a “respirator”. Not good prospects for a future bonsai soil pumice replacement.

 

[TN_Jim]

Here’s what probably the best side of root flare is looking like. You can also see reverse taper caused by the burlap twine choking it -this was a really disappointing find. Does anyone feel this area will fill out some now that it’s free of the stranglehold, or just what it is..?

some more...

 

[TN_Jim]

If you plan on using Growstone and can find it better get all you can buy fast. I looked up their website and it expired on 2/5/19. So I called a couple phone numbers listed on an MDS and the first one was an incorrect number. The Alt number got me another answer and he said that although the comapny is not dead it is on a “respirator”. Not good prospects for a future bonsai soil pumice replacement.

Damn...good intel there...I have one bag that should get me there for now, maybe I should go back up to the hydro shop and clean em’ out..

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The G-2 Growstone - made from recycled glass, is a very good substitute for pumice. I use it in an identical manner. The only issue has been that you really need to sift it. A large percentage is either too coarse or too fine. Otherwise, use just like pumice.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice trunk
I don't really see a wire scar, but that zone of ''reverse taper'' is most likely due to it being a grafted tree. If grafted it has healed well. Really well. If not grafted, bark that forms under the soil line is much thinner than bark that forms exposed to the air. The ''reverse taper'' will smooth out, as direct sun hits the smooth trunk it will form a more coarse bark. The difference may in time disappear completely, but it will take a few years.

I would ignore the reverse taper, it is not bad in photos and in time should become invisible. Even if it never disappears it is not so severe that one would not be able to ignore it.

 

[TN_Jim]

Nice trunk
I don't really see a wire scar, but that zone of ''reverse taper'' is most likely due to it being a grafted tree. If grafted it has healed well. Really well. If not grafted, bark that forms under the soil line is much thinner than bark that forms exposed to the air. The ''reverse taper'' will smooth out, as direct sun hits the smooth trunk it will form a more coarse bark. The difference may in time disappear completely, but it will take a few years.

I would ignore the reverse taper, it is not bad in photos and in time should become invisible. Even if it never disappears it is not so severe that one would not be able to ignore it.

Awesome, this is really good to hear. I will be sure to keep rotating it periodically. I am very much looking forward to diving into this thing.
As always, thank you greatly!

 

[WNC Bonsai]

The G-2 Growstone - made from recycled glass, is a very good substitute for pumice. I use it in an identical manner. The only issue has been that you really need to sift it. A large percentage is either too coarse or too fine. Otherwise, use just like pumice.

Yes, according to the MDS it is basically foamed glass. Sounds like it could be good if they can get back in business.