Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[Brian Van Fleet]

New thread so we don't continue destroying Adair's Itoigawa transformation.

I will when it is convenient for me to do so. I expect you to do the same thing, I have been doing bonsai for over 50 years and your definitions and what photos you have posted still are not clear to me. If they are not clear to me they sure have to be unclear to others just too intimidated to say anything.

I have done the same thing, clearly and consistently for years. If they're not clear to you, that's your deficiency not mine.

We have argued this in the past, and I suspect you just don't want to show that what you're arguing so hard against, is exactly what you are doing. If you are really "gripping and ripping", it explains why it takes 18 years for you to advance a design.

http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/to-pinch-or-not-to-pinch.8900/
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/shimpaku-project.4389/page-2#post-149491
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/my-new-and-1st-shimpaku.13827/#post-181037

How is this unclear?



https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2015/07/25/juniper-pinching-pruning-and-wiring/
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2015/08/01/trimming-a-couple-junipers/




Your turn.

 

[Dav4]

This is why I will never leave this forum...drama AND good information on horticulture, technique, etc. It doesn't get any better then this.

 

[jquast]

New thread so we don't continue destroying Adair's Itoigawa transformation.



I have done the same thing, clearly and consistently for years. If they're not clear to you, that's your deficiency not mine.

We have argued this in the past, and I suspect you just don't want to show that what you're arguing so hard against, is exactly what you are doing. If you are really "gripping and ripping", it explains why it takes 18 years for you to advance a design.

http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/to-pinch-or-not-to-pinch.8900/
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/shimpaku-project.4389/page-2#post-149491
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/my-new-and-1st-shimpaku.13827/#post-181037

How is this unclear?

I'm new to junipers and this is pretty clear to me.

 

[Giga]

Yeah same to me, but I'll grab a bag of popcorn too.

 

[Vance Wood]

Your above display is unclear in that you are only dealing with runners, I know ,and every body knows you cannot pinch runners. In attempting to do so will make a glorious mess and you will have to wind up cutting the resulting mess out of the tree with scissors, but this is not the process of pinching. dealing with newly extending growth that is growing outside of the profile you wish to preserve, is pinching and is the process of controling the new growth before it gets to the runner state. This process makes really fine and compact foliage masses.

 

[Adair M]

But, Vance, letting the tree occasionally produce runners is good for it. Not letting it produce runners weakens the tree over time.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Your above display is unclear in that you are only dealing with runners, I know ,and every body knows you cannot pinch runners. In attempting to do so will make a glorious mess and you will have to wind up cutting the resulting mess out of the tree with scissors, but this is not the process of pinching. dealing with newly extending growth that is growing outside of the profile you wish to preserve, is pinching and is the process of controling the new growth before it gets to the runner state. This process makes really fine and compact foliage masses.

You're still blabbering. My challenge to you has been and continues to be:
SHOW me what you're doing right.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

To me the concept of "cutting runners" is about letting the runner (as a sacrifice) run out and collect energy so the tree will provide that location with water. At a point in the season you cut that runner and the energy now goes in 2 or 3 new runners closer to the trunk that would eventually be shaded and robbed of energy by the runner. The next year you go in again and cut the new often smaller runners and the same thing happen. By letting runners longer at some places you can direct energy.
Vance, how often do you "pinch"? is it 2 times in a growing season, is it 4 or 8 times?
Adair and Brian how often do you cut out the runners?
Here on developing plants we typically do a big cleaning ad the beginning of august, cutting the runners and cleaning out not growing foliage. In fall we style and cut some more. During the growing season we clean out the foliage further. When the tree is strong enough and reacting good we start cutting the runners faster (july) and repeat august and sometimes fall again. Spreading the work over the whole year and thinning it out a bit at a time reduces the stress.

 

[Vance Wood]

Did I say that letting runners develop was wrong. You remember a couple of years ago when you took exception at something I said I had posted a picture of a Shimpaku as an example to a third party. You came back and said: "That sure isn't much to show for thirty years work". If you remember I replied: Do you not practice letting a tree rest for a while after getting it to a show ready condition? Following is the offending image:

 

[Vance Wood]

This is the tree as of a year ago.

 

[coh]

That looks like a pretty happy, healthy tree. I don't see any brown tips. So unless my relatively untrained eyes are deceiving me, you seem to be doing something right.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You still haven't shown what you actually do: the process. My process (consistent with many pros) is shown in post 1.

Show what you do after you let the tree "rest for a while after getting it to a show ready condition" when you want to prep it a couple years later for another show.

 

[carp]

The bonsai community is picking on the Midwest again...they're all out to get him again...his remarks only in defense of extreme disregard of respect towards him again...the sky is falling on Vance again...you just don't understand how stupid you are by disagreeing with Vance again....you don't understand how much Vance has done for bonsai again...going against the main stream again....salmon running upstream again...

 

[leatherback]

The bonsai community is picking on the Midwest again...they're all out to get him again...his remarks only in defense of extreme disregard of respect towards him again...

pff.
Why so dramatic.

I thought the question of showing how Vance works his trees is a great question, and I for one would love to see the alternative ways of getting Juniperus pads to develop. If Vance has a good way, which creates denser, shallower pads then possible with Brians' way, I for one would love to understand the process. As pictures can tell more than a thousand words..

 

[sorce]

I call us Great lakes.

Midwest

Even before bonsai. Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, that's the Midwest!

The lake weather makes the difference more important for Bonsai!

And.

I hope these friends of mine stay nice with each other. So far so good.

Peace

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

The only way I can resolve this is thru a video and I just don't have time to put one together now, maybe Monday I'll have time if I am not collapsed in a heap somewhere. In the mean time lets see you put together a video of your method.

 

[Giga]

wouldn't 3-4 pictures of a branch showing the step do the same thing and can be done in about 15minutes? maybe a video would help but at least we could see

 

[Vance Wood]

You'll have to wait till Monday at the earliest and it will be a video.

 

[Smoke]

Man...waiting for the debate last night nearly killed me...

Now...I gotta wait till Monday for Trump to make his video, damn..I'm gonna need a sedative.

 

[M. Frary]

I brought a shimpaku with me to the Four Seasons Bonsai Club show. It hasn't had anything done to it. Maybe if Vance and I find time we can take some pictures of the process.
If that's the case,I'll post them sooner than Monday.
Now, since I'm sitting in the parking lot of the largest nursery I've ever seen and they are just now opening up I'm going in to look at Mugo pines while I wait for Vance to arrive.
Just keep holding you're breaths. Pictures may be on their way.