Warpig
Chumono
I'm planning on getting one or the other as a organic component for my soil mix from bonsaijacks site and was wondering if there were any major differences between the two? Any info would be appreciated.
Pine bark vs Douglas Fir bark
- Thread starter Warpig
- Start date
Sansui
Shohin
Does this help?
www.bonsainut.com
Pine bark vs fir bark
So I can't find pine bark fines anywhere around here or soil conditioner. I can find fir bark in the form of reptibark at petco which is 100% fir bark fines requiring no sifting. Can fir bark be substituted for pine bark in my soil mixes for my trees? Thanks....
Warpig
Chumono
Odd, i tried useing the search but nothing came up with it. It was mostly just people asking about pine bark. Thank you for posting.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
I have the same issues often with searches.
Have you checked out BJ? Scroll down in link, the pH is about 1 point lower on pine, and fir does last longer
is prettier, but I normally use BOTH together 1:1. I think (could just be in my head) that pine bark
will have better microbial activity since it's coveted in the composted form as a conditioner.
3 Gallons 1/4 inch Pine Bark Fines (12 Dry Quarts) – Bonsai Jack ©
www.bonsaijack.com
3 Gallons 1/4 Inch Douglas Fir Bark Fines (12 Dry Quarts) – Bonsai Jack ©
www.bonsaijack.com
I have both will take a pic after while
Tieball
Masterpiece
I use an Aged Pine Bark. It works well for me. I think....but do not really know for sure (means I’m guessing)....that the Douglas Fir Chips could possibly last longer in my environment. However, I have plenty of the Pine Bark on hand....so that’s what I’ll use. I really feel that from my experience that I’ll stay with the Pine Bark. But....newer Pine Bark, not Aged.
So, why do think the Fir would last longer than the Pine? I examined the texture and feel of both in my fingers and under a magnification glass. The Aged Pine tended to crumble easier with finger pressure while the Fir held up much longer. At a bonsai show I bought a bag of simple Pine Bark Chips 1/4“ to 3/8“ size.....Not aged. The chips actually look more like the Fir Chips when new. I applied similar finger pressure and the newer Pine Bark Chips held up much better...about the same as the Fir. Perhaps, in my case, the “Aged” Pine Bark was too aged. The decomposition might be to far along. The Newer Pine Chips are working well....I’ll buy more next time.
I know someone will have some scientific explanation. I’m only going on with what I feel with my own hands and see with my magnifying glass. That’s what works for me. I would encourage you to do the same. I’m sticking with the Pine Bark Chips. There will be lots of opinions....I go along with my experience though. I’m removing trees and root pruning every 2-3 years anyway....so new Pine Bark is added. The decomposition timing works for my trees....they are all very healthy. That’s what counts to me.
So, why do think the Fir would last longer than the Pine? I examined the texture and feel of both in my fingers and under a magnification glass. The Aged Pine tended to crumble easier with finger pressure while the Fir held up much longer. At a bonsai show I bought a bag of simple Pine Bark Chips 1/4“ to 3/8“ size.....Not aged. The chips actually look more like the Fir Chips when new. I applied similar finger pressure and the newer Pine Bark Chips held up much better...about the same as the Fir. Perhaps, in my case, the “Aged” Pine Bark was too aged. The decomposition might be to far along. The Newer Pine Chips are working well....I’ll buy more next time.
I know someone will have some scientific explanation. I’m only going on with what I feel with my own hands and see with my magnifying glass. That’s what works for me. I would encourage you to do the same. I’m sticking with the Pine Bark Chips. There will be lots of opinions....I go along with my experience though. I’m removing trees and root pruning every 2-3 years anyway....so new Pine Bark is added. The decomposition timing works for my trees....they are all very healthy. That’s what counts to me.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
In hand the pine feels softer from this vendor than does the fir, but I mean it compresses easier
and from my experience the pine accepts water quicker and the fir sheds it (new out of the bag).
It just takes a little longer to "activate" the water retention capabilities of the fir initially.
Once moist, IDK which holds longer though. Both 3.5g bags weigh 7# ea.
Stan Kengai
Omono
The biggest difference is the shape of the particles. Pine is flat and virtually 2 dimensional, whereas fir is more chunky (for lack of a better word) with a shape more similar to the other substrates we traditionally use. The thinner pine particles break down quicker that fir.
Either do a good job, but in my experience fir is superior.
Either do a good job, but in my experience fir is superior.
Last edited:
Warpig
Chumono
Thank you all for the replies. Thinking I'll go with the fir this time and try pine next round.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,339
- Reaction score
- 23,280
- USDA Zone
- 5b
As @Stan Kengai said, particle shape is one difference.
In orchid horticulture bark is the mainstay substrate. Fir bark is usually bark from Douglas fir - Psuedotsuga. In orchid culture fir bark breaks down in as little as 2 years for orchids, but in orchids we want "fresh bark" , as a bonsai substrate we want composted bark. It takes fir bark about 6 months to become "composted" enough in a flower pot to achieve "composted status" and then the particles last about 4 years in bonsai culture. The bark will slowly break down into fine particles that will accumulate in the bottom of the pot. Mixes containing fir bark should be replaced before the 7 year mark. At about 5 to 6 years the bark will be mostly broken down.
North American domestic pine bark is exactly as Stan described it, and because of the flat shape it is not the best choice for as a significant % of a mix.
There is a product that is popular in the orchid community, Radiata Orchid Bark - it is Pine Bark from Pinus radiata - the Monterrey Pine. This bark is imported from New Zealand, from their extensive forestry projects. The bark is steam treated, the heat partially caramelizing the natural wood sugars in the bark, making the product much more stable. This bark will still be a recognizable particle 10 and 15 years in use in a bonsai mix. The particles are not as flat as domestic pine bark, much more similar to fir bark, even chunky. In orchid mixes it makes a very good long lasting substrate. I like it for a dry bonsai mix, such as one used for pines, it goes well as a component of an otherwise inorganic mix. It will retain the properties of the inorganic mix, as it does not hold near as much water as fir bark. Because it is imported, it is expensive, almost as expensive as Akadama in North America.
So
If you want to add water retention, and cellulose for mycorrhiza to eat, use fir bark. Will decompose, should repot before the 7 year mark, 5 year or less is ideal. Helps to create an acidic mix.
If you want a stable, particle that is very slow to decompose, but does eventually decompose choose the imported Radiata brand type pine bark. Good for up to 15 years in a mix. Does not add much water retention until the 4th year or later of use. Does eventually help acidify a mix. A long term stable particle.
Domestic North American pine bark - likely lodgepole, scots, American red pine, or southern yellow pine bark, what ever is being harvested locally - most of the time tends to be excessively flat particles makes it not useful. But if you do find a chunky, more block shape particle - it will work. Usually will not be heat treated, so stability is like that of douglas fir bark. It will help acidify the media, last about 5 to 7 years and provide "food" for mycorrhiza.
In orchid horticulture bark is the mainstay substrate. Fir bark is usually bark from Douglas fir - Psuedotsuga. In orchid culture fir bark breaks down in as little as 2 years for orchids, but in orchids we want "fresh bark" , as a bonsai substrate we want composted bark. It takes fir bark about 6 months to become "composted" enough in a flower pot to achieve "composted status" and then the particles last about 4 years in bonsai culture. The bark will slowly break down into fine particles that will accumulate in the bottom of the pot. Mixes containing fir bark should be replaced before the 7 year mark. At about 5 to 6 years the bark will be mostly broken down.
North American domestic pine bark is exactly as Stan described it, and because of the flat shape it is not the best choice for as a significant % of a mix.
There is a product that is popular in the orchid community, Radiata Orchid Bark - it is Pine Bark from Pinus radiata - the Monterrey Pine. This bark is imported from New Zealand, from their extensive forestry projects. The bark is steam treated, the heat partially caramelizing the natural wood sugars in the bark, making the product much more stable. This bark will still be a recognizable particle 10 and 15 years in use in a bonsai mix. The particles are not as flat as domestic pine bark, much more similar to fir bark, even chunky. In orchid mixes it makes a very good long lasting substrate. I like it for a dry bonsai mix, such as one used for pines, it goes well as a component of an otherwise inorganic mix. It will retain the properties of the inorganic mix, as it does not hold near as much water as fir bark. Because it is imported, it is expensive, almost as expensive as Akadama in North America.
So
If you want to add water retention, and cellulose for mycorrhiza to eat, use fir bark. Will decompose, should repot before the 7 year mark, 5 year or less is ideal. Helps to create an acidic mix.
If you want a stable, particle that is very slow to decompose, but does eventually decompose choose the imported Radiata brand type pine bark. Good for up to 15 years in a mix. Does not add much water retention until the 4th year or later of use. Does eventually help acidify a mix. A long term stable particle.
Domestic North American pine bark - likely lodgepole, scots, American red pine, or southern yellow pine bark, what ever is being harvested locally - most of the time tends to be excessively flat particles makes it not useful. But if you do find a chunky, more block shape particle - it will work. Usually will not be heat treated, so stability is like that of douglas fir bark. It will help acidify the media, last about 5 to 7 years and provide "food" for mycorrhiza.
Japonicus
Masterpiece
Another reason for me to blend the two 1:1 as part of my otherwise inorganic mix
