Pine Horticulture Cheat Sheet?

[ShadyStump]

I love pines- especially pinyons- but they don't love me. I've so far killed more trees than not in my personal bonsai quest, and I'm not ashamed of it. Failure is a great teacher. I do however know I'm missing something (or many things) obvious that needs to get filled in in order to cure my black thumb. Something that will flatten my learning curve, or at least make sense of the things I've observed so far that I can't pin down.

So, is there some sort of basic pinus horticulture general knowledge source out there I could use? I poignant quick reference guide sort of thing? Every time I try to research it I either get 'pine trees for kids and dummies,' or, 'everything that could possibly be known about (insert specific species name here), volume 72,' and not much in between. A Cliff's Notes, short bullet point list of terms and definitions followed by general concepts that pertain across the genus. Seems like this should be a thing.

 

[jimib]

I'm not sure you'll be able to find that...different types of pines require different care. You may be able to get a little more specific with single flush or double flush pines but still those can be different between themselves. I have JBP, mugo and ponderosa and they all get treated differently....

 

[AnacortesSteve]

Same advice here, research the species you are working with or interested in, bonsaitonight has a lot of good check lists per species.

 

[Adair M]

All pines like good draining, inorganic soil. If you’re not using that, there’s your problem!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Bohne has uploaded a sheet like that in the resources page of the forum.
I'm working on expanding it with more common issues, but since pines take so long to show any signs, it's hard to find a baseline and deviations. Let alone documenting them well.

 

[sorce]

The problem is, none of those cheat sheets are going to have the necessary information.

Only you have all the necessary information. Which is how healthy the tree is and has been for x amount of moons prior.

The books only assume you are working on a healthy tree.

The only way to know what a healthy tree is, is to observe them growing without interference. So for every tree you wish to do something to, have one to do nothing to.

I assume you are digging these?

Sorce

 

[Colorado]

Cheat Sheet for Pinyon Pine:

Soil Mix - 1:1:1 Akadama: Pumice:Lava

Full sun. The sunniest spot in your yard.

Do not be tricked into thinking that because pinyon pine is a desert-ish species, it doesn’t need much water. The tree does not have a deep taproot in the bonsai pot. Pinyons use a lot of water in a container.

Repot in spring as buds swell.

Never fully bare root a pine. Always leave some portion of the root system untouched when repotting.

Obviously there is a lot more to it than that, but that should at least help you keep them alive.

Where in Southern Colorado are you? Are you up in the mountains?

 

[August44]

Tell me how you collect...detailed what, when, how please

 

[Colorado]

Tell me how you collect...detailed what, when, how please

Can’t help you there. I buy my yamadori from the professionals

But I believe they collect them pretty similar to other pines. Spring or fall, ideally when there’s some moisture in the ground.

 

[August44]

When you get them, have they just been collected and what do you know about the roots collected, the soil their in, how big they are etc? If they are brand new collected trees, how do you take care of them for the first 2 months or so?

 

[shimbrypaku]

The pines I have bought I keep in inorganic soil, fluff out some ot the mountain soil, clay soil and anchor securely in the Anderson flat. Try not to damage the fine roots.

Keep in a shaded spot for two weeks of so, and then move to a more sunny spot.
Then start a mild fertilizer schedule when you see growth.

Then my personal preference is to do nothing to the pine for two years, may be remove old needles and thin out if the growth and health of the tree is strong.

But that just my two cents.

 

[ShadyStump]

Thanks, all! Just so I'm coming across clear, I was meaning more the science and biology end. I feel like if I can get a better grasp there I'll piece together the gaps in my experience faster. I gave up on finding too much specific on the two needle pinyons in my region. There's almost know horticulture on them because they've never been practical or popular for forestry of any kind.
Though, I did find a rather good pamphlet PDF on the Rocky Mount Bonsai Society page on pinyons, it's really written for experienced bonsai artists who are just new to pinyons.
@Colorado, I'm in the foothills, west of Pueblo a ways.
Yes, I'm collecting my own. I've tried fall and spring collections the past year since I started in ernest. My closest thing to success was a lovely thing I found last September growing atop a boulder. It was doing well all winter until those weird spring frosts this year got the better of it. Tried a couple more this past spring. One just lost too much root coming out and died of transplant shock. The other is dying now; my best guess is too rich a soil (I'm on a budget of zero, so my soils is whatever I find in the yard to break up the clay the thing was found in), not enough sun in the safest spot in the yard, and my two year old son helping to water... several times a day... every day... for weeks... and weeks... He also keeps pulling the leaves off my mulberry cutting for some reason.

 

[August44]

So are you taking a freshly collected Yamadori and repotting it immediately or are they a year or so old? I leave mine in shady spot for a month and then morning sun only the rest of the summer and then always protect in winter for the first winter. And so when do yours die?

This is a little confusing...not sure who I'm talking to anymore

 

[Kadebe]

So are you taking a freshly collected Yamadori and repotting it immediately or are they a year or so old? I leave mine in shady spot for a month and then morning sun only the rest of the summer and then always protect in winter for the first winter. And so when do yours die?

This is a little confusing...not sure who I'm talking to anymore

Well, this is article from Herr WP is a very good start I guess...

Collecting Trees from the Wild - English

This is the English version of the article. It was originally written in German around 1995. In the late 90ies it was published in Bonsai To...

walterpallbonsaiarticles.blogspot.com

 

[ShadyStump]

So are you taking a freshly collected Yamadori and repotting it immediately or are they a year or so old? I leave mine in shady spot for a month and then morning sun only the rest of the summer and then always protect in winter for the first winter. And so when do yours die?

This is a little confusing...not sure who I'm talking to anymore

Isn't always with these things, though? LOL Colorado and I are apparently one a couple hour drive from each other, so it seems we're going on about the same things at the moment.
I try to put mine in an oversized planter pot or nursery pot when I first collect them, but I'm usually stuck with whatever my wife isn't using for gardening at the time, however impractical it is. My intent is to leave them a year or so until the roots catch up to the transplant.
Transplant shock starts to show within two weeks for this species, otherwise this last one has made it 5 months, making me think not enough sun maybe. Hard to believe in a place with a UV index of 7 all summer and a spot with at least partial afternoon sun.

 

[Colorado]

Isn't always with these things, though? LOL Colorado and I are apparently one a couple hour drive from each other, so it seems we're going on about the same things at the moment.
I try to put mine in an oversized planter pot or nursery pot when I first collect them, but I'm usually stuck with whatever my wife isn't using for gardening at the time, however impractical it is. My intent is to leave them a year or so until the roots catch up to the transplant.
Transplant shock starts to show within two weeks for this species, otherwise this last one has made it 5 months, making me think not enough sun maybe. Hard to believe in a place with a UV index of 7 all summer and a spot with at least partial afternoon sun.

You need to leave the roots alone for at LEAST 2 years after collection.

You also mentioned you use whatever soil you have around. If you want to be successful collecting these you really need to put the tree in 100% pumice after collection. You are probably never going to have reliable success if you collect it and then throw it in a big pot full of miracle gro potting mix...

 

[MrWunderful]

Stop digging trees if they keep dying, and find a local that can keep them alive. Do what they do.