Pine killer trend breaker?

[leatherback]

So.. I have a history of killing pines. I had reserved a wild yamadori at a nursery in order to really try and break a pattern. Doing repotting with someone to see what I do wrong. But was told last week that that one is suffering from fungal infection and might not make it through winter.

Today I was at a friends' nursery and he had a big pile of trees that he thought were not economically viable anymore. Some because they dried out in summer, some because of standing around too long and outgrowing the shape. As we hada club day at the nursery, we dove in the pile and pulled some trees out in exchange for a bit of money for the tip jar. I pulled this yellow pine out (Note: It is suppose to be dark blue green; It is a Scotch [hic] pine. This one is one of the trees that grew out too much and received too little fertilizer for a bit and now will need a good year of work to get some growth back on the inside:



Two hours, a wheelbarrow full of dead stuff, some guy wires and a watering can of foliar feed later:


If it responds well, and returns to healthy colour by late spring, I will repot this with a friend and then spend a year focussing on backbudding.

Oh, this is not the nest front. But I realized that only later and do not have a full set of pictures yet. THe lower trunk is much better from another angle

 

[hemi71cuda]

I don’t see how buying an unhealthy tree and then trying to repot it could be a serious effort to break a pattern of killing pines. Why not just protect it thru the winter then spend the next growing season focusing on restoring health? What’s your winter season like? It’s already been snowing here so my perspective is that fall is over. There’s no mechanism left for a tree to recover or regain health between now and late spring. Maybe your location affords more time still. And when spring comes around the only effect there is that the tree will expend resources on new growth. Asking it to also rebuild roots when it’s unhealthy sounds risky.

Regardless, the trunk is nice and I wish you luck with it.

 

[leatherback]

It is not unhealthy, just poorly fertilized and badly maintained. All branch endings have 2-5 buds.

Weather here is fall. Occasional frost but mostly sunny. Most of my deciduous have started to drop some leaves, all is bright yellows and reds. Junipers still are growing. Foliar feeding the tree now as roots are slowing down.

As said.. Going by the recommendations of someone else now, to ensure I do not kill this:

If it responds well, and returns to healthy colour by late spring, I will repot this with a friend

 

[hemi71cuda]

Maybe we have different definitions of healthy. Your description as relegated to a pile of abandoned material by a nursery owner, not cared for recently, yellow needles instead of dark green does not paint a picture of a strong tree for me. Fertilizer is not food, a healthy pine should have no trouble staying green without the help of supplemental fertilizer.
Perhaps you’ve seen more than you’ve shared though. If you’ve determined the pot is root bound or soil has broken down or is so dense it is causing issue then maybe a repot is necessary. Barring any of that i feel the best path towards strength and backbudding is to leave the roots alone and give it lots of sun and fertilizer for a season or two while maintaining proper water and oxygen flow thru the soil.

 

[sorce]

I think the difference in definitions of healthy is one untouched year from this point.

Not a lot of time, but A Grand difference to the tree.

For me, having 2-5 buds means ready to have a healthy top next year.

But further and even more important.....

This means roots won't ESTABLISH till the next year.

So in reality, year 3 is the safe year to work.

The unbreakable large pattern is this.

Unhealthy.
Grow a Good Top.
Grow Good Roots.
Healthy.
Work ensure leading to Unhealthy again.

I think people work their trees to often to see this pattern of LARGE AND HEALTHY GROWTH.

Wait one year, and once you make it to 2, you'll wanna make it to 3, the health gets understood.

If I may, @leatherback, you don't win styling awards for giving a fuck about life or death!

Get your life or death award now.

Blend.

Well done!

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

Perhaps you’ve seen more than you’ve shared though.

So in reality, year 3 is the safe year to work.

Hm..
Being argumentative, I know. I do not want to be though; Its just because I really want to understand. And maybe information that would change the situation

If I look at this pine, it is completely rootbound. This tree has had nothing done to it for 5+ years. Just sitting in a nursery. If lucky, maybe a trim here and there when it outgrows its area. First thing I did to this tree while still at the nursery is remove a 4feet pin growing on top of it. Getting home, I removed a bunch of small roots that had create a half inch wobble underneath the pot. This plant is well established. It sits in a non-draining pot full of roots. The buds are strong. To me the problems looks like:

- Pot too full, drainage holes blocked
- Poor maintenance pushing the foliage out and out and out
- No fertilizer ever since moving into a pot, a few years ago

Of course I unblocked the drainage holes by taking out all the small roots growing through it, and poking a chopstick though them. So to me, it seems like a reasonable step to want to take: Get the roots in new shoes assuming the foliar feed and early spring feed results in a quick greening up of the plant again. Am I wrong?

giving a fuck about life or death!

Hm.. Does it sound like I just don't care? I would say the opposite. Even cuttings or seedlings I do not want to continue with do not end up on my compost but in hands of people who want them. No-one wants them, I chuck them in a growing bed for 2 years after which people normally do want them. I hated every single time a pine died at my hands.

 

[Tieball]

I think you have a plan. Stick with it and bring the tree back to health. I’d likely keep it wind-guarded to avoid any drying out of the branches over the winter months. However, I really don’t know your winter though.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I think a few extra drainage holes in the pot would really help on getting it back to green. My scots have the ability to turn yellow in fall and go green before spring if I make the right adjustments with a red hot glowing nail.
If it's back green in spring, I'd say you can continue your plan. If not, try to diagnose the issue and go from there. Baby steps!

 

[sorce]

Does it sound like I just don't care?

Not at all.

Drive makes you blind.
Not careless.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

just because I really want to understand.

Me too!

First thing I did to this tree while still at the nursery is remove a 4feet pin growing on top of it

Pin? Branch?
Seems a lot.

taking out all the small roots growing through it, and poking a chopstick though them.

More work.

But most importantly I believe...

, I removed a bunch of small roots that had create a half inch wobble underneath the pot

Makes this....

This plant is well established.

This plant WAS well established.

Do you know when it was pulled from it's 5 year spot?

I believe once a tree has access to the ground thru a pot, it will, year after year, be actively growing roots into the ground. This causes the tree to abandon any roots inside since keeping them alive to HOPE for water is uneccesary as far as resources go.
A tree doesn't want to live in a pot, it just will till it finds Earth.
Once it finds Earth, all of it's lifesource comes from there.

After 5 years, I would guess most of it's roots were cut off upon moving for sale.

Even a 2cm root thru a hole can go on to become everything the tree lives on.

Any chance of digging up them old in ground roots now? Too see what it lost?

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

Any chance of digging up them old in ground roots now? Too see what it lost?

Nothing was lost before. It did not have access to the soil: It had just a bunch of small roots below the pot which sat on a root barrier. I chopped off the full mat of roots which would not have filled a teacup.

 

[River's Edge]

It is not unhealthy, just poorly fertilized and badly maintained. All branch endings have 2-5 buds.

Weather here is fall. Occasional frost but mostly sunny. Most of my deciduous have started to drop some leaves, all is bright yellows and reds. Junipers still are growing. Foliar feeding the tree now as roots are slowing down.

As said.. Going by the recommendations of someone else now, to ensure I do not kill this:

Not sure why everyone is busting your chops. The tree has potential, you have cleaned it up for the winter. Your plan to wait for spring and repot with help is sound. I would suggest a transition style repotting. By that i mean a staged repot over a number of times. Partial in the spring, partial in the fall, remainder in the following spring depending on the trees response. Key will be managing the watering while the transition takes place. Water thoroughly and allow to dry out somewhat between watering. When you are working with partial repots it is helpful to immerse the pot occasionally to ensure that the whole rootball retains moisture. It can tend to run through the free draining part and the compacted part remains dry. If you water too much then the compacted part remains to wet. That is why the key is to manage the watering during the transition.
With pines bare rooting is a poor option to be avoided if at all possible.
The stages i prefer are as follows:
Step one deal with the strong roots on the bottom and up under the center core. ( from the bottom ) Slow process to ensure not disturbing the remaining root ball
Step two, 1/2 HBR on the weakest side if there is a pronounced difference.
Step three, 1/2 HBR on the remaining side.
This completes the removal of all compacted original nursery soil and also strengthens the weakest areas of the rootball before disturbing the strongest feeder root area.
If you have any questions just PM me and i will assist.

 

[_#1_]

I believe once a tree has access to the ground thru a pot, it will, year after year, be actively growing roots into the ground. This causes the tree to abandon any roots inside since keeping them alive to HOPE for water is uneccesary as far as resources go.
A tree doesn't want to live in a pot, it just will till it finds Earth.
Once it finds Earth, all of it's lifesource comes from there.

I don't know man. Is this scientifically proven? Or a hypotheses? You kinda don't want to mess with a tree's health or life based on a hunch.

I took this big Yew in a half barrel Spring of 18'. You can see there's a bunch of roots escaped from the bottom. Even one huge one in the middle. It's kinda too early to say if it will die later though. The nebari is around 10-12" so it maybe is running on stored energy. Who knows, but it's growing like a weed right now and I'm 100% certain a lot of roots escaped far into the ground. AND... I'm pretty sure it's in that pot almost it's entire life, which should be more than 10 years base on trunk size (8-9")

Spring 2018


Today

 

[sorce]

Not sure why everyone is busting your chops

It is exactly what he is looking for, except it's not busting chops, you're calling it that.

We have to stop reading posts like "poor old OP" or we will never build.

I don't know man. Is this scientifically proven? Or a hypotheses? You kinda don't want to mess with a tree's health or life based on a hunch.

This isn't making sense to me because the last line infers I am leaning towards less health, I am speaking of more health and less risk.

It doesn't have to be scientifically proven, it is just an option to be explored.

For instance, that "wood barrel" for all intents and purposes, is wholly in ground, which is a different scenario than what I'm talking about.

We are merely uncovering possibilities to get to the goal of the title. This is one.

Had there been much access to earth, it is highly possible that tree needs to at least reactivate sections inside the pot, at most regrow entire feeders masses.

@leatherback since it hasn't lost too many roots, I would give it this large cycle of growing a good top for a year, growing good roots the following year, and probably hitting it hard for backbudding around the solstice of 2022.

Oh, watering right.

An unkempt tree needs unkempt tactics.

The move for a weak tree isn't repotting, ever.
Dunking, atomizing water, using warm water, soaking, these are tactics that need to be employed for watering a potbound unhealthy tree.

Simply because repotting them NEVErARELY works.

Default back to Ryan Neil and what a tree needs to survive.
Repotting an unhealthy tree is not one of those things.

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

Lol. I will see what the tree looks like in spring. Then I will ask my friend to help. He actually picked the other 10ft (!) pine that was hanging around there, trimmed the very long pint (Yeah, new main trunk going straight up) after he heard what I paid for mine. So I gess wewill do two trees, starting with his .

He has loads of experience with pines, and is NOT killing them. Interesting to see the different viewpoints on this, and clearly I am onto one of the reasons pines do not like it in my garden.. Pines are like yews then, roots - foliage - work - repeat. Sigh.

 

[_#1_]

For instance, that "wood barrel" for all intents and purposes, is wholly in ground, which is a different scenario than what I'm talking about.

Believe it or not, that barrel was 99.9% above ground. The wood rotted and broke down through the years. Look at the side, no roots extended out. Just the bottom where there's access to earth. That rootball was exposed to USDA 6 zone all these time and thriving.

Anyways I disagree that given time, trees abandon roots in pot in favor of escaped roots. Escape roots are opportunity for bigger root mass. But I could be wrong.

Hey @leatherback, do water percolate well? Or is it slow to drain? Maybe come spring just pop the tree out the pot to inspect the rootball, and go from there?

 

[leatherback]

Looks happy enough!

 

[MichaelS]

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this already but this is the tree to practice your grafting skills on. You could do 50 or 100 grafts without weakening the tree.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

How the hell did you get such tiny needles? Mine just keep getting longer and longer!

 

[leatherback]

How the hell did you get such tiny needles? Mine just keep getting longer and longer!

try no fertilizer for years and no watering in a summer like last.
I feel it is the main reason why it was looking poorly. I am going for 4inch needles this season. Let it get nice and strong.