Pine needles
- Thread starter Endoftown
- Start date
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
The general rule for soil components is whatever works.
If you're looking for an organic component that won't hold TOO much water but still some, in my experience pine needles (or spruce or fir for that matter) can do as good a job as anything. They do tend to get rather acidic as they decompose, so watch out for that, but they decompose fairly slowly compared to some other organic fillers.
If you're looking for an organic component that won't hold TOO much water but still some, in my experience pine needles (or spruce or fir for that matter) can do as good a job as anything. They do tend to get rather acidic as they decompose, so watch out for that, but they decompose fairly slowly compared to some other organic fillers.
PA_Penjing
Chumono
I think adding pine needles into the soil is a great idea (I do it). But using so many that they become a soil component might be a little intense for a lot of tree species. But that's only a hunch and I could be wrong
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
Well, technically anything you put in the soil is a soil component, but yeah, I wouldn't want it to be too significant a part of the mix for most applications.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,636
- Reaction score
- 24,369
- USDA Zone
- 5b
East Tennessee is not the "great hinterlands", you are not that far for a couple bonsai orientated nurseries, including Bjorn Bjornholm and Owen Reich. It is possible to pick up modern substrates for creating modern bonsai soils. American Bonsai, & Stone Lantern, both do mail order if the time it takes for a drive is not feasible.
Pebbles, do not hold water well, and they are heavy. Pebbles and compost is a 1850's to 1930's style bonsai soil, and if you look at show catalogs from those days, you can see bonsai was much more primitive then, trees today have a much greater development in ramification and style. In part this is because constant problems with the old soil mixes were constantly setting back development of the trees. Modern substrates allow less frequent repotting and much more resilience in vagaries of weather.
Modern substrates are varied, but usually contain a lightweight, porous particle like pumice or perlite. Also used is crushed and sieved lava, as it holds less water than pumice. In addition often use a unique form of clay derived from erosion of volcanic tuft, akadama and kanuma, which are often imported from Japan. Similar deposits occur in the Pacific Northwest, but are not currently being mined. This volcanic clay, akadama, has properties that clays derived from glacial till simply do not have. For those who are price sensitive they use a USA sourced calcined clay (clay fired to retain shape, like crushed brick particles)) or fossilized diatomaceous earth (note this is not the powder, but hard gravel like chips of rock made of silica from diatoms). There are other ingredients used, many developed by the landscape plant industry.
The "gold standard" mix used by many high end bonsai artists is akadama, pumice and lava, in roughly equal proportions for conifers, increasing the akadama portion for water retention for deciduous trees.
Another successful mix also used by some is pumice, and douglas fir bark chips, at roughly 2 to 1 ratio.
There are many other mixes that work, I know it is a slogg, but read through the following thread, the take away is that there are many soil components that can work, but really the best ingredients are Pumice - any mix based on pumice has a good chance of working well long term for raising bonsai.
Perlite is a "almost good enough" substitute for pumice in training pot phase of bonsai. Perlite is just too light to be used in a small display bonsai pot.
Akadama has a difficult to argue with track record for producing excellent root systems. (especially combined with pumice).
The last is ignore any "soil wars" exchanges that get too heated. Not meant to offend, but some have very passionate opinions about how to grow their bonsai.
www.bonsainut.com
So while you can raise a decent tree in the antiquated mix that you are proposing, using modern substrates will make your horticulture easier to master. Nothing wrong with composted pine needles. Actually the pebbles is the part of your mix that makes me cringe, the pine needles are a "good thing" in moderate amounts.
Pebbles, do not hold water well, and they are heavy. Pebbles and compost is a 1850's to 1930's style bonsai soil, and if you look at show catalogs from those days, you can see bonsai was much more primitive then, trees today have a much greater development in ramification and style. In part this is because constant problems with the old soil mixes were constantly setting back development of the trees. Modern substrates allow less frequent repotting and much more resilience in vagaries of weather.
Modern substrates are varied, but usually contain a lightweight, porous particle like pumice or perlite. Also used is crushed and sieved lava, as it holds less water than pumice. In addition often use a unique form of clay derived from erosion of volcanic tuft, akadama and kanuma, which are often imported from Japan. Similar deposits occur in the Pacific Northwest, but are not currently being mined. This volcanic clay, akadama, has properties that clays derived from glacial till simply do not have. For those who are price sensitive they use a USA sourced calcined clay (clay fired to retain shape, like crushed brick particles)) or fossilized diatomaceous earth (note this is not the powder, but hard gravel like chips of rock made of silica from diatoms). There are other ingredients used, many developed by the landscape plant industry.
The "gold standard" mix used by many high end bonsai artists is akadama, pumice and lava, in roughly equal proportions for conifers, increasing the akadama portion for water retention for deciduous trees.
Another successful mix also used by some is pumice, and douglas fir bark chips, at roughly 2 to 1 ratio.
There are many other mixes that work, I know it is a slogg, but read through the following thread, the take away is that there are many soil components that can work, but really the best ingredients are Pumice - any mix based on pumice has a good chance of working well long term for raising bonsai.
Perlite is a "almost good enough" substitute for pumice in training pot phase of bonsai. Perlite is just too light to be used in a small display bonsai pot.
Akadama has a difficult to argue with track record for producing excellent root systems. (especially combined with pumice).
The last is ignore any "soil wars" exchanges that get too heated. Not meant to offend, but some have very passionate opinions about how to grow their bonsai.
Introductory soil physics
Questions about soil physics come up all the time and I find that I repeat myself a lot on this topic. I'm going to try and write a reference for folks to refer to on this topic. I'm expressly NOT going to offer you any advice on what soil you should use in your garden, whether you should use...
So while you can raise a decent tree in the antiquated mix that you are proposing, using modern substrates will make your horticulture easier to master. Nothing wrong with composted pine needles. Actually the pebbles is the part of your mix that makes me cringe, the pine needles are a "good thing" in moderate amounts.
JoeH
Omono
- Messages
- 1,090
- Reaction score
- 998
- USDA Zone
- 9B
I was wondering this too along with shredded pine cones my squirrel does good job of turning the cones into mulch
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,636
- Reaction score
- 24,369
- USDA Zone
- 5b
Mulch, pine cones, pine needles, oak and elm leaves, any composted garden material is a good additive to a modern media, if the proportions do not create problems with excess moisture retention and the particle size of the mulch and or compost does not "clog up" the air and water penetration of the media. PIne needles and decomposing oak leaves can create a more acidic media, but if your irrigation water is municipal in origin, the water is buffered to the slightly alkaline, the acidity of the compost will be neutralized by use of municipal water to supplement watering. Some trees, like azalea, blueberry, fir & spruce, maples, beech and hornbeams all prefer a somewhat acidic media, so the compost of pine needles and other leaves is not an issue.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It be a pain to use 3in. Needles in a 1in. pot.
Welcome to Crazy!
Sorce
Welcome to Crazy!
Sorce
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
One issue with compost or leaf litter is that it can become hydrophobic if it dries too much. This means you'll be balancing water a lot during the summer.
Expect to do some soaking too.
Nothing beats the natural stuff! Mycorrhizae have evolved to feed on exactly these kind of soils and the beneficial bacteria will be plenty. But since there's no bottom layer of damp sand or forest soil, I do expect leaf litter to be a bit more risky than bark or other modern substrates.
Mix it well and don't use too much.
Alternatively, make a compost heap and add bits of compost to your fertilizer. This is a safe bet in all senses. It provides the right kind of input material but has little drawbacks.
In winter I like using a layer of litter on the pots, just to keep things alive - and to have myc to "graft" into other pots.
Expect to do some soaking too.
Nothing beats the natural stuff! Mycorrhizae have evolved to feed on exactly these kind of soils and the beneficial bacteria will be plenty. But since there's no bottom layer of damp sand or forest soil, I do expect leaf litter to be a bit more risky than bark or other modern substrates.
Mix it well and don't use too much.
Alternatively, make a compost heap and add bits of compost to your fertilizer. This is a safe bet in all senses. It provides the right kind of input material but has little drawbacks.
In winter I like using a layer of litter on the pots, just to keep things alive - and to have myc to "graft" into other pots.
JoeH
Omono
- Messages
- 1,090
- Reaction score
- 998
- USDA Zone
- 9B
Compost them a bit so they crumble up.
Well I only have 3 trees at this point all collected 1 small erc in basically just clay dirt pine needles and gravel on the bottom 1 small Virginia pine in my kinda homemade fired clay pebbles and about 10% pine needles and 1 big Virginia pine in kinda a clay compost mixture with a lil gravel on bottom and 5% gravel mixed in trying to keep this on the cheap until I figure how to keep my trees alive they all seem to be doing ok and the big tree seems to be candling
