Pine Trees - Multiple Buds / Shoots / Candles

AndyJ

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Hi folks,

General pine tree question - it's kind of the same question across JBP, JWP, JRP & Scots Pine.

Mine trees are all less than 5 years old and are all "growing on" - I've tried out a few techniques to learn what happens when they are applied, things like candle removal on JBP and summer cut back on Scots Pine.

When do you start reducing buds / shoots / candles to two on young trees? My trees have loads of shoots - should I be reducing everything to two right from the get-go? My logic is telling me not to do this as I need vigour and strong growth to grow a trunk and if I reduce everything to two, I'm not letting the tree grow am I?

Do you need different approaches to JBP, JWP, JRP & Scots Pine?

Thanks all

Andy
 

Paulpash

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When growing a developing pine you are essentially mixing 2 methods - for your "keeper" branches you are keeping these small and well structured while the sacrifice(s) which are usually left at the top of the tree are just managed with a view to creating girth for the main trunk. The sacrifice needs to grow strongly BUT it should not shade the parts you cut back to later so usually needles and any overhanging branches are pruned off resulting in a somewhat odd looking tree when in development. The keeper branches are managed using standard bonsai techniques (bud reduction / shoot pruning / needle cutting as required) so that when the sacrifice has done its job we have a good looking structure in place. Balancing vigour between top and bottom must be monitored - letting the sacrifice get too strong could result in the tree shedding the weaker keeper branches. Not allowing the sacrifice to grow vigorously could result in taking many more years to get sufficient taper and or the keeper branches being disproportionately thick / large for the tree.

Yes, different approaches are needed for the pines you listed - it's too complex to describe here - the search function will serve you well in this regard.
 

Adair M

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When they’re really young (like what you describe) just let them all grow. Once you begin styling, reduce to two. Or, if you start to see the beginnings of swelling, knobs, or reverse taper, reduce to two.
 

plant_dr

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On YouTube there are some excellent videos by Ryan Neal /Bonsai Mirai about pines and how & when to do things. Here's part one, about double flush pines like JBP.

Part two is about single flush pines.
 

AndyJ

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Thanks for the replies gents.

....... while the sacrifice(s) which are usually left at the top of the tree are just managed with a view to creating girth for the main trunk. The sacrifice needs to grow strongly BUT it should not shade the parts you cut back to later so usually needles and any overhanging branches are pruned off resulting in a somewhat odd looking tree when in development.

I think I've read some posts in here about sacrifice branches and the mixed views about what form they should take with regards to whether a single candle is left on the branch to grow (this single candle gets all the energy and therefore grows long and fast) or multiple candles left to grow on the branch ( I guess the thinking here is more candles equals more wood equals bigger branch). Is there a definitive? Or is this like asking what the best substrate is?!

I have struggled over last autumn and winter to do the bud selection on my JBP's and Scots Pines that I pruned last year as part of my learning process. Can I still do this now or am I too late? Are there any pros / cons in still doing it?

Thanks folks,

Andy
 

Vance Wood

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The truth about pines is that there are two essential methods for growing them. Learning one means that for the most part you will fail with trees that fall into the second category.
 

Bonsai Nut

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The truth about pines is that there are two essential methods for growing them. Learning one means that for the most part you will fail with trees that fall into the second category.

I think what you meant was learning JUST one means you will fail with trees that fall into the second category. Treat a Japanese White Pine like a Japanese Black Pine, and you will probably kill the Japanese White Pine.
 

AndyJ

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Thanks gents. Yes I understand that the different types of pine tree needs different treatment. A JBP and a JRP are both two flush pines aren't they? Where as JWP is a single flush - as is a Scots Pine. I understand that decandling a JWP will not result in the same response as it would in a JBP.

I've got 5 different types of pine tree. I've already learned loads from you guys on BNut and what I'd like to learn, is what do I do to each type in order to develop it.
 

0soyoung

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Every pine can be treated like a Japanese White Pine, IMHO.
  1. select 2 buds on each branch tip (when there are three or more)
  2. pinch candle lengths, about the time needles start to emerge, for balance between pairs and over all.
  3. cut back newly hardened shoots to balance foliage over the tree, keeping at least 5 rows of fascicles of each shoot.
JWP and all white pines with which I am familiar drop their papery needle sheaths when hardened. Other species do not. Hardened needles are darker green and stay attached when gently tugged.

I've learned better by experimenting with individual branches. Needles have at least a 2 year lifetime, so it rarely is 'terminal' (a pun) to simply cut off the new candle/shoot about June (i.e., prior to the summer solstice) and observe whether it respond like a JBP, producing new terminal candles/shoots or not. If so, pursue treating it like a JBP.

On the other if it just sets terminal buds for the next year, you now know what to do. It may happen that no new terminal buds are set. Especially in this case, look for fascicular buds (at the bases of needle groups). One can always cut back to a fascicular bud, 'any time'. Yadda, yadda, yadda, you can figure it out. Keep in mind that the strongest back budding stimulus results from removing hardened foliage. Candle pinching has a weak effect in back budding and is fundamentally a technique to limit the length of new shoots. IMHO it is a question of the frequency of 'dead ends' (tips with no terminal buds).

Lastly do 'epicormic buds' (in areas without needles) appear after any of these treatments?
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Oso. I'll do some experimenting and see what happens.

Where do you stand with regards sacrifice branches? Cut everything thing off except the lead shoot? Or leave side shoots on to develop weight/wood?

Thanks again

Andy
 

0soyoung

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Thanks Oso. I'll do some experimenting and see what happens.

Where do you stand with regards sacrifice branches? Cut everything thing off except the lead shoot? Or leave side shoots on to develop weight/wood?
My opinion is that the foliage on the sacrifice just needs to be somewhere it won't shade the low branches. It is also important that the sacrifice be the highest foliage, so that it has apical dominance. Otherwise I don't think it matters much exactly what you do. IMHO, it is the shading of other things you are growing that dictates reducing the size sacrifice foliage sail. IOW, each year the sacrifice gets a bit taller and one removes the previous year's whorl sometime after the new apical whorl is hardened, just to reduce shading to other things you are growing nearby.

If you are ground growing, there is an advantage to having a tall sacrifice exposed to winds/breezes. It's motion, whipping around in the breeze, will stimulate forming a broader tapering base. In this circumstance, one wants a big sail/parachute of foliage at the top. If you are pot/colander growing this will only give you headaches because it will just be falling over all the time.
 

AndyJ

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Thanks Oso. I've got a couple of trees that I've got good sacrifice branches set low down on the trunk so I'll just wire these out of the way of the main tree.

Here are a couple of my JWP Pines - the first is a standard JWP the second is a Zuisho. Both young trees. From what you guys are saying, I should leave these all as they are for this year?DSCN0429.jpgDSCN0436.jpgDSCN0435.jpg
 
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AndyJ

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Thanks again Oso - I appreciate the guidance. So I'll just leave all candles alone this year, even those where there are four candles per shoot?

Thanks for the comment about the trees - they are pretty small at the moment but I like them and after seeing what BVF did with his Zuisho, I'm hoping to make this one in to something.

What would you advise with this Scots Pine? I'm trying to develop it as a "Mother - Daughter" tree. I fed it heavily last year and cut back the two trunks and then just watered for the rest of the year. I didn't do any bud selection - I just left everything as I wasn't sure how the tree would react after winter. I repotted it a few weeks ago and its taken off!! I'm sure there are too many buds here - and I'm conscious of not allowing any bar branches to develop; should I deal with these now? Or again, just leave alone for this year? There are loads of candles growing up the side of both trunks and the top of both trunks are pretty dense with shoots. What do you think?

a_DSCN0490.jpga_DSCN0503.jpga_DSCN0508.jpga_DSCN0510.jpg
 

amatbrewer

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I just wanted to thank 0so and the others for all the helpful advice on this. I know all of this has been covered before, many times and in various ways. But for those like me who are making their first real effort with pines (I have killed a few but never really grown/developed any), it can seem quite complicated and can get overwhelming. So restating the same information in different ways, and different context can really help make it more clear. Especially for someone like me with little to no local resources to utilize (nearest place for me to see/learn anything bonsai is about a 3hr drive away and it can be quite rare that I have the opportunity to do that).
I am sure it is boring and/or frustrating for those to whom it seems they are getting the same questions over and over. So again I say thanks, it is much appreciated!
 

AndyJ

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I just wanted to thank 0so and the others for all the helpful advice on this. I know all of this has been covered before, many times and in various ways. But for those like me who are making their first real effort with pines (I have killed a few but never really grown/developed any), it can seem quite complicated and can get overwhelming. So restating the same information in different ways, and different context can really help make it more clear. Especially for someone like me with little to no local resources to utilize (nearest place for me to see/learn anything bonsai is about a 3hr drive away and it can be quite rare that I have the opportunity to do that).
I am sure it is boring and/or frustrating for those to whom it seems they are getting the same questions over and over. So again I say thanks, it is much appreciated!

I'm in a similar boat, Amat. I am disabled and housebound - I cant move many of my trees without help from my family. Repotting time is really difficult. My photos are pretty poor too as I cant get the trees in to the best position!!

I too, would like to extend my thanks to Oso, Adair and PaulPash for answering my questions. It really is a great help!

Andy
 

0soyoung

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On branches one is likely to keep, buds/candles ought to be reduced to two. On the sacrifice, who cares? It is just a matter of not shading things you don't want to be shaded and/or keeping the tree and pot from falling over at the slightest bit of a breeze.

P. sylvestris takes well to candle pinching or to treatment like a mugo. IMHO pinching is removing a portion of the emerging shoot about the time needles are appearing and is a technique that is of use only to limit shoot length in a well-established bonsai. In general I think it better to let the shoot grow and partially cut it back once the foliage has hardened as commonly done with mugos shortly after the summer solstice.

My 'local resource' for bonsai is the internet other than an occasional outing to the Pacific Bonsai Museum and Elandon Gardens. There is nothing like seeing great bonsai 'up front and personal, in real life 3D' as the artistic expression side of this game is my biggest challenge. I just didn't get it until I read Francois Jeker's book and a subsequent visit to the PBM and the lights went on! Now I have an intuitive sense of what to do stylistically. Previously I had no capacity to answer the quetion of 'you know why you like it, don't you?' Styling a tree has become enjoyable rather than irritating. I don't know if any one person or people in a local club could have gotten me over that hurdle. On the other hand, had my goal been to emulate Dan Robinson's or Walter Pall's work, studying with them (intensives/apprenticing) would likely have been the best thing to have done.

The other guys are much more focused than I. I simply love just finding things out. So have lots of inexpensive trees (even free volunteers found in my landscape), I fiddle, I do stupid things, I find things that surprise me, I read, I fiddle some more. BNut is better than any club, IMHO. There are people in different climates, different areas of the world, playing this same game - so much more interesting, stimulating, and useful to me than any bunch of local-yokels. Socializing isn't important to me. I get enough of people here on BNut :D


Lastly, few of us are professional photographers, so don't apologize for your photography!
 

AndyJ

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Thanks for your comments, Oso. I agree about the wealth of knowledge freely given by folks on here and in their efforts in helping us novices learn!

Ok, I'll not worry about my photos then! ??
 

mrcasey

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With respect to single flush pines, whether or not one is pinching new growth or cutting hardened off growth, does more than one bud appear at the cut site? What if the hardened off growth is only partly removed?
 
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