Pines that don’t require winter dormancy

[casun]

I’m in southern California in an area that doesn’t have sustained winter temperatures in the 40s (or the 50s). Winter nighttime temperatures dip into the 40s, but daytime highs are back up in the 60s. Are there pines that don’t require winter dormancy that can be grown in my environment? If so, which ones? Or is growing pine for bonsai a doomed endeavor in my area?

 

[Alexmacrophyllum]

I live in the IE so there's not much in the way of chilling here. Anywhere from 150 to 450 hrs under 45 degrees.
Then you get the 100 plus summers. Anything close to alpine needs some shade protection.
Japanese Black Pine does well once you get the watering down. Ive had great luck with Pinus strobiformis or the Southwestern White Pine. I've been growing Pinus radiata and Pinus attenuata both native to California, another one that has been slow growing has been Pinus monophylla which is a great desert pine. Pinus radiata is native to the coast so it might be a little dry for them but so far have been handling the heat well.. I have yet to se a good lodgepole pine grow down here, there are some at high elevations but they are scarce Allepo pines are used in local landscapes so id imagine they are accustomed to the climate.

 

[Forsoothe!]

You need to make the circuit of local landscape nurseries to see what they sell. Then if you're looking for pre-bonsai, you'll know what to ask for from those bonsai sources.

 

[0soyoung]

Pinus halepensis
Pinus pinea
Pinus kesiya

 

[Potawatomi13]

I’m in southern California in an area that doesn’t have sustained winter temperatures in the 40s (or the 50s). Winter nighttime temperatures dip into the 40s, but daytime highs are back up in the 60s. Are there pines that don’t require winter dormancy that can be grown in my environment? If so, which ones? Or is growing pine for bonsai a doomed endeavor in my area?

Try mexican pines. Check online for nurseries or ask local nursery. Ag permit to import easy to get. Seed companies might help if willing to grow from seed.

 

[Shibui]

Japanese black pine does well in warmer climates. You will probably need to modify the usual management techniques to get better ramification and shorter needles because they an grow all year round.
Pinus pinaster is used for agroforestry in Northern Australia and is also grown in Hawaii. Pinus elliotii also grows in tropical areas.
Pinus halapensis has been mentioned and does well in drier, warmer areas. Pinus brutia is very similar.
There are also a number of pinus species from tropical areas that cannot tolerate colder climates but I have no idea if they are used as bonsai.
Some of the above have naturally longer needles or open growth habit so may be less suitable for bonsai.

 

[casun]

I live in the IE so there's not much in the way of chilling here. Anywhere from 150 to 450 hrs under 45 degrees.
Then you get the 100 plus summers. Anything close to alpine needs some shade protection.
Japanese Black Pine does well once you get the watering down. Ive had great luck with Pinus strobiformis or the Southwestern White Pine. I've been growing Pinus radiata and Pinus attenuata both native to California, another one that has been slow growing has been Pinus monophylla which is a great desert pine. Pinus radiata is native to the coast so it might be a little dry for them but so far have been handling the heat well.. I have yet to se a good lodgepole pine grow down here, there are some at high elevations but they are scarce Allepo pines are used in local landscapes so id imagine they are accustomed to the climate.

i have a handful of JBP in various stages and two Allepo pine seedlings. I’ll look into Monterey and Knobcone. Thank you.

 

[casun]

Pinus halepensis
Pinus pinea
Pinus kesiya

I recently purchased two Stone Pine seedlings and I’ll look into Pinus kesiya. Thanks.

 

[PA_Penjing]

There's a group of us growing Huangshan pine (pinus hwangshanensis) and those in the zones 9 and 10 are seeing good results so far. They grow like weeds, there is little written about them in america but they seem to be considered zone 7-9 trees. I managed to get my hands on Aljos Farjon's encylapedia of conifers for a few days and he speculates that huangshan pine are very common in chinese bonsai/penjing but are often mislabelled as korean pine. They are close relatives to japanese black pine

 

[0soyoung]

Good point @PA_Penjing, I forgot that @bonhe is growing Japanese and Korean black pines in Riverside CA (= southern CA @casun).
As I recall, @Anthony was successfully growing JPB in Trinidad&Tobago, it just wasn't possible to produce shorter needles via decandling because of the warmth.

 

[casun]

Japanese black pine does well in warmer climates. You will probably need to modify the usual management techniques to get better ramification and shorter needles because they an grow all year round.
Pinus pinaster is used for agroforestry in Northern Australia and is also grown in Hawaii. Pinus elliotii also grows in tropical areas.
Pinus halapensis has been mentioned and does well in drier, warmer areas. Pinus brutia is very similar.
There are also a number of pinus species from tropical areas that cannot tolerate colder climates but I have no idea if they are used as bonsai.
Some of the above have naturally longer needles or open growth habit so may be less suitable for bonsai.

I’ll look into some of those. Thank you.

 

[casun]

There's a group of us growing Huangshan pine (pinus hwangshanensis) and those in the zones 9 and 10 are seeing good results so far. They grow like weeds, there is little written about them in america but they seem to be considered zone 7-9 trees. I managed to get my hands on Aljos Farjon's encylapedia of conifers for a few days and he speculates that huangshan pine are very common in chinese bonsai/penjing but are often mislabelled as korean pine. They are close relatives to japanese black pine

Huangshan Pine looks very interesting. I’ll look into that. Thank you.

 

[casun]

Is it true that Mugo Pines require winter dormancy, so they won’t grow well long term in zone 9b?

 

[0soyoung]

Is it true that Mugo Pines require winter dormancy, so they won’t grow well long term in zone 9b?

It is bud chill time, not dormancy per se, IMHO.
And, likely not enough in 9b. I am in 8b and in a coastal Douglas fir forest. They need in excess of 1,000 hours below 40F. I don't know the bud chill time for mugos but they are just fine here. Your location can get cold enough, I just have no idea if it is chilled for long enough, but let's say NO.

 

[casun]

It is bud chill time, not dormancy per se, IMHO.
And, likely not enough in 9b. I am in 8b and in a coastal Douglas fir forest. They need in excess of 1,000 hours below 40F. I don't know the bud chill time for mugos but they are just fine here. Your location can get cold enough, I just have no idea if it is chilled for long enough, but let's say NO.

My assumption is that the 1,000 hours needs to be consecutive, so fluctuating between 40-60 degrees isn’t enough, even if the total number of hours at 40 degrees is 1,000. Is that assumption correct?

 

[bonhe]

Good point @PA_Penjing, I forgot that @bonhe is growing Japanese and Korean black pines in Riverside CA (= southern CA @casun).
As I recall, @Anthony was successfully growing JPB in Trinidad&Tobago, it just wasn't possible to produce shorter needles via decandling because of the warmth.

Thanks Osoyoung for introducing me here.
I am also growing Huangshan pine seedlings which grow like weeds here!
Talking about growing pine in tropical areas, I introduced JBP to Vietnam in 2010. In the same year, I and a few of my friends formed The Vietnamese Conifer Bonsai Club there, which has been growing over thousand members. JBP has been growing very well there. They are able to do trunk cutting, air layering with very high succeed rates.
Thụ Thoại

 

[0soyoung]

My assumption is that the 1,000 hours needs to be consecutive, so fluctuating between 40-60 degrees isn’t enough, even if the total number of hours at 40 degrees is 1,000. Is that assumption correct?

No, it does not have to be consecutive hours, just accumulated. Most days in the winter, here, it is above 40F during the daylight hours. Simplistically, buds won't push until they have accumulated enough hours, then it is just a matter of waiting until the temperatures persist above 40F, but in fact there's quite a grey area because buds can be forced with warm temperatures to a certain extent.

I can get little mugo for $15-$20 at the local garden center nurseries. If you find a similar bargain in your area, give it a try. If your climate doesn't provide enough annual chill hours, it will just get weaker over the seasons, loosing branches until there are no branches left to loose. You'll just have to try to know for sure. Still, I put my bet on NO.

 

[casun]

No, it does not have to be consecutive hours, just accumulated. Most days in the winter, here, it is above 40F during the daylight hours. Simplistically, buds won't push until they have accumulated enough hours, then it is just a matter of waiting until the temperatures persist above 40F, but in fact there's quite a grey area because buds can be forced with warm temperatures to a certain extent.

I can get little mugo for $15-$20 at the local garden center nurseries. If you find a similar bargain in your area, give it a try. If your climate doesn't provide enough annual chill hours, it will just get weaker over the seasons, loosing branches until there are no branches left to loose. You'll just have to try to know for sure. Still, I put my bet on NO.

I have two Mugo Pine seedlings so we’ll see how they fare over the next few years. Thanks for the help.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Contact Calflora see what they say.

 

[Shibui]

I have had a mugho here for more than 25 years. Seems to manage to stay alive and grow quite happily in what I believe is USDA zone 9