Pinus canariensis - advice needed

Fidur

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So, last december I bought this pinus canariensis:


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Two months later, I prunned, wired, styled and repotted. This is how it looks now:

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As much as I know, this is not a good tree for bonsai. Yes it backbuds, but their 5 adult needles are so, so long, that it seems no one is eager to work on it.
I have heard that you can control it, prunning usually, so you have always juvenile needls like now. And that is what I have been doing.
So I wanted to know your opinion and advices about wich the front of this tree should be, how should I style it, how to keep its needles under control, and any thoughts you have about this project.
Thanks in advance
 

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sorce

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I'd see if you can twist it, in the direction that the wire will tighten, to put a branch or 2 on the opposite side.

Looks like a promising start.

Sorce
 

MaciekA

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As much as I know, this is not a good tree for bonsai. Yes it backbuds, but their 5 adult needles are so, so long, that it seems no one is eager to work on it.
I have heard that you can control it, prunning usually, so you have always juvenile needls like now. And that is what I have been doing.
So I wanted to know your opinion and advices about wich the front of this tree should be, how should I style it, how to keep its needles under control, and any thoughts you have about this project.
Thanks in advance

Needle length in a pine (and foliage size in many many tree species) is ultimately a function of water input, not pruning or pinching practices per se. The pine in your photo looks like a great candidate for bonsai and if I had this tree I'd be excited to develop it into a bonsai.

You said it yourself: this tree backbuds. That mechanism, along with a constricted root volume, is all you need. Repeated ramification of branches while holding total possible rootage at a fixed volume is your path to increasing the population of buds. As the population of buds increases and begins to draw enough water to match the capacity of either this pot or a future pot (likely a shallower bonsai pot), you should gradually see a change in needle characteristic. If you want to ramify this tree significantly, you'll need to allow it attain vigor/momentum as opposed to continuously cutting it back and inducing juvenile growth.

During early development, long needles can even be thought of as highly desirable to keep momentum high (since foliar surface area serves your development goals: thicken trunk, grow roots, heal wounds, generate more buds).

At Hagedorn's garden, students of pine growing are shown a ponderosa pine that has NOT been grafted with foliage from a different pine species. It's 100% ponderosa from top to bottom, and yet the needles are remarkably short, looking similar to nearby lodgepole and other pines. How is this achieved? Through ramification and management of water. Hagedorn is quick to note that this is not a suggestion to starve a pine of water. Rather, it's just an observation that long needle length isn't an impassable barrier, it's just an expression of the tree's geometry and water-absorbing surface area at a given stage of development.

If you want a very dramatic demonstration of krumholtzing / water division among shoots in a very short time (esp. in the Canary Islands), I suggest planting a few succulent cuttings into very-well-draining pots of 100% pumice and keeping those pots no more than about 1 cup (230mL) in size. Place them in the absolute sunniest location you have (on your roof if necessary), and fertilize the daylights out of them. Then compare to a control group of cuttings that you've put into much larger containers with more heavily-water-retaining soil and otherwise treated the same way.
 

Fidur

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Needle length in a pine (and foliage size in many many tree species) is ultimately a function of water input, not pruning or pinching practices per se. The pine in your photo looks like a great candidate for bonsai and if I had this tree I'd be excited to develop it into a bonsai.

You said it yourself: this tree backbuds. That mechanism, along with a constricted root volume, is all you need. Repeated ramification of branches while holding total possible rootage at a fixed volume is your path to increasing the population of buds. As the population of buds increases and begins to draw enough water to match the capacity of either this pot or a future pot (likely a shallower bonsai pot), you should gradually see a change in needle characteristic. If you want to ramify this tree significantly, you'll need to allow it attain vigor/momentum as opposed to continuously cutting it back and inducing juvenile growth.

During early development, long needles can even be thought of as highly desirable to keep momentum high (since foliar surface area serves your development goals: thicken trunk, grow roots, heal wounds, generate more buds).

At Hagedorn's garden, students of pine growing are shown a ponderosa pine that has NOT been grafted with foliage from a different pine species. It's 100% ponderosa from top to bottom, and yet the needles are remarkably short, looking similar to nearby lodgepole and other pines. How is this achieved? Through ramification and management of water. Hagedorn is quick to note that this is not a suggestion to starve a pine of water. Rather, it's just an observation that long needle length isn't an impassable barrier, it's just an expression of the tree's geometry and water-absorbing surface area at a given stage of development.

If you want a very dramatic demonstration of krumholtzing / water division among shoots in a very short time (esp. in the Canary Islands), I suggest planting a few succulent cuttings into very-well-draining pots of 100% pumice and keeping those pots no more than about 1 cup (230mL) in size. Place them in the absolute sunniest location you have (on your roof if necessary), and fertilize the daylights out of them. Then compare to a control group of cuttings that you've put into much larger containers with more heavily-water-retaining soil and otherwise treated the same way.
Your comments are very, very interesting....not the usual aproach I have been reading in blogs, youtube, etc but they make sense to me.
I'll have it in mind in the development of this pine.
Thanks a lot
 

Ruddigger

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There’s a local guy near me with several of these. He gets nursery trees with 6” trunks, and chops them to stumps like a deciduous. They backbud all over and he makes some amazing trees out of them. Hard to believe treating a pine like that, but it works for him.
 

Fidur

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There’s a local guy near me with several of these. He gets nursery trees with 6” trunks, and chops them to stumps like a deciduous. They backbud all over and he makes some amazing trees out of them. Hard to believe treating a pine like that, but it works for him.
I´m thinking of buying a big trunk one, and experiment with that idea. Thanks for the hint
 

Fidur

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If you want to thick up put it in a bigger training pot, where island you live?
Gran Canaria
I know I can thick it up ( I've read of a lot of methods). In my case I can ground it in my garden and I know in 5 years there would be a significative growth. But in my sixties now, I enjoy to work and play with them now...
I can see you live here, wich island?
 

Bu-Jetjet

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Hi there! I have a Canary Island Pine that I rescued and chopped to a stump back in 2014. I transferred it to a "shallow" pot Fall of 2019 and have noticed the needle length have definitely gone shorter.
I water it often - even daily during the summer season. But I do have more of an organic mix to it compared to my other pines.
Also, I treat it as a single-flush pine when it comes to pruning.
 

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Fidur

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Hi there! I have a Canary Island Pine that I rescued and chopped to a stump back in 2014. I transferred it to a "shallow" pot Fall of 2019 and have noticed the needle length have definitely gone shorter.
I water it often - even daily during the summer season. But I do have more of an organic mix to it compared to my other pines.
Also, I treat it as a single-flush pine when it comes to pruning.
I love the bark of your pine. It's exactly as I see it in nature here.
So the chopping to a stump of this pine as Ruddiger sugested can work. ¿Did you left any branch or just a stump?
 

Bu-Jetjet

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I love the bark of your pine. It's exactly as I see it in nature here.
So the chopping to a stump of this pine as Ruddiger sugested can work. ¿Did you left any branch or just a stump?
I left one branch back in 2014 to make sure it had a chance of survival. The following spring, it started back-budding and I let it grow wild to recover its strength. I forgot to mention that I did fertilize heavily - all throughout the years. I believe I started selecting branches in 2017, and focused on their growth. I have 3 more - another rescue that still has not been styled with obvious long needles, and two that has been grown from seed. I'll post some photos when I get home. I love how the corking of the bark all differ from one another.
 

Fidur

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I left one branch back in 2014 to make sure it had a chance of survival. The following spring, it started back-budding and I let it grow wild to recover its strength. I forgot to mention that I did fertilize heavily - all throughout the years. I believe I started selecting branches in 2017, and focused on their growth. I have 3 more - another rescue that still has not been styled with obvious long needles, and two that has been grown from seed. I'll post some photos when I get home. I love how the corking of the bark all differ from one another.
Revisiting your picture, I see the needles are very under control. Congratulations on that work
Good details of bark and habitat of the pinus canariensis can be get here
 

Potawatomi13

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Interesting tree very nearly same as Chir Pine Pinus roxburgeii(sp?). In common have fine needles and develop thick bark pretty young. One other suggestion to diminish appearance of long needles is grow larger tree of 3 1/2'-5'. Something not mentioned was when doing finish development use less fertilizer during growing time for needles then fertilize after harden off for ramifying buds;).
 
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Canary pines are very easy to cultivate and fast growers, the only and big problem its the adult needles they can be 30 cm (11,8 in) so many people keep them with the blue and short juvenile growth like many with the Stone pines Pinus pinea. John Naka in his book talked about Canary pines, a nursery stock tree with a big trunk and grafted with Thunbergii, seems that was a common thing in the time since it was easy and cheap to find them in california
Another interesting thing about this Pine that seems to be relatively easy to propagate with cuttings but only juvenile branches not adult ones
 

Bu-Jetjet

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Don't get discouraged about the "adult needles". Just be patient and select the branches that produces the adult needles. As you can see, with proper care, I was able to shorten them no longer than 2". Cut off the pesky juvenile needles as soon as you see them.
 

Juanmi

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I'm curious. I would like to see the developement of this tree. As you said, I've always read the same stuff about the canarian pines, but I'm sure you can do something nice with it.

PS.: Just wanted to say that I loved the Canary Islands (I visited only La Palma). My wife and I had a really good tile there
 

MichaelS

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Canary Is Pine is a problem. I have one which was given to me as a gift. It is ~ 50 years old and it had not been repotted once or fed much for 35 years. Yes you read that correctly!
Despite no root work, it was pinched and pruned from time to time and never had a chance to grow mature needles. Only the juvenile type.
Once it came to my hands I pulled it out of it's pot. It was ''growing'' in pure dust. It seems that each year it produced a few new roots - enough to keep it alive - to replace the ones that died the year before. Seems like it did this for 30 years! The ''root ball'' really didn't exist.
I cleaned the roots of most of the old mix and repotted into a large clay pot. That was 2 years ago. I did not touch the branches or leaves. With the new freedom, it finally produced it's true mature Canary Island Pine foliage which is green (not blue like the juvenile) and very long. About 6 inches. I hate the idea of keeping only juvenile leaves on the tree (although this is obviously quite possible) One reason is that branches will not thicken at all with this method. The other reason is that to me, it does not seem fair to the tree.
Therefore my next step is to graft on another variety low down on each thin branch. The new variety will need (I assume) to be botanically closely related. That means finding a dwarf P canariensis variety which is unlikely, or using some other Mediterranean species like P. halepensis
Being in the Canary Islands, you might be able to track down a witches broom of P canariensis and use that - if you decide to go down that path. (grating pines is extremely easy)...
 
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Dkdhej

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Therefore my next step is to graft on another variety low down on each thin branch. The new variety will need (I assume) to be botanically closely related. That means finding a dwarf P canariensis variety which is unlikely, or using some other Mediterranean species like P. halepensis
P. canariensis is actually most closely related to Pinus Roxburghii, a pine tree species from the Himalayas.

Not so much with the other Mediterranean pine trees, Pinus pinea being accepted as the closest.
 
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