Pinus Cortorta (Shore Pine) #1

[Orion_metalhead]

Or I'll take pictures now... hahaha.


This is the intended front. By tipping the tree up slightly, I gain some movement at the top of the main trunk line.

The following are shots of the current healthy buds.





I was thinking of possible removing this branch entirely... it's long and leggy... but I don't know. Maybe more deadwood later..


I was thinking I could use the smaller parallel branch directly above it as a back branch... chasing that back or wiring it back into a back pad.
The tree without that side branch looks like this:


This is one spot where I tried plucking some needles, and it appears that there are in fact two buds there... but I don't want to do the whole tree without confirmation it works. So I may try this further on some branches I intend to remove to see the outcome.

 

[River's Edge]

Or I'll take pictures now... hahaha.

View attachment 356788
This is the intended front. By tipping the tree up slightly, I gain some movement at the top of the main trunk line.

The following are shots of the current healthy buds.
View attachment 356789
View attachment 356790
View attachment 356791
View attachment 356794

I was thinking of possible removing this branch entirely... it's long and leggy... but I don't know. Maybe more deadwood later..
View attachment 356792

I was thinking I could use the smaller parallel branch directly above it as a back branch... chasing that back or wiring it back into a back pad.
The tree without that side branch looks like this:
View attachment 356793

This is one spot where I tried plucking some needles, and it appears that there are in fact two buds there... but I don't want to do the whole tree without confirmation it works. So I may try this further on some branches I intend to remove to see the outcome.
View attachment 356796
View attachment 356795

Your tree could use an extra period of time to regain more health before continuing to prune or style! The overall strength is still pretty weak in terms of desirable condition in my opinion!. I understand that you may not wish to hear that, but it would be unfair if you were advised to continue with the tree in this condition. The foliage should look full and healthy dark green all over similar to this shore pine. A real healthy pine will respond better to Bonsai training. It is evident in your current pictures that the foliage is not very healthy even though some sections have improved.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Thanks Frank. Any specific things you would recommend for me this year? Any specific tips on fertilizing? Should I do any sort of pruning at all? Should I not wire this tree at all this year?

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks Frank. Any specific things you would recommend for me this year? Any specific tips on fertilizing? Should I do any sort of pruning at all? Should I not wire this tree at all this year?

First off, I cannot recall the history of this tree and the work you have previously done with subsequent timing. However, either it has been worked too much or it is in need of a repot, based on its condition! if you brought the tree to me, the first thing I would do is take it out of the pot and check the soil and roots. I then would be in a better position to advise you.
The media looks like a very free draining mix on the surface, but what is around the central core of the root ball? Has all the old soil been changed out over the years? I frequently find the core is compacted with field soil that was never removed even though the tree has been in a pots for years!
Whatever the cause, I believe the best course of action would be to ensure free drainage ( repot if needed), place in sun, fertilize with organic low numbers and let grow for two or three years with good care it should bounce back nicely! Some of the needles appear discoloured which may be from staying too wet in the core. It is hard to tell from the photo but some of the discolouration could be needle cast.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Buds this year look much better than last year!





Last year, about 10 days earlier:

 

[August44]

I do think the virtual sketch could work out fine. You have a good plan for the tree.

I would consider just taking all that wire off. Let the tree relax and grow and get healthy for a year, or two. Then in 2021 or 2022 go back and wire. But that is my thought. The wiring is done, no need to rush to change it. Pines stay flexible for quite a while. You can usually fix any "bad choices" the previous owner made even several years down the road. Hopefully you will get more back budding.

I agree with what Leo has said here. Then fertilize heavy and hope for lots of back budding. To me, wiring is an inhibitor, and you don't need that at this point

 

[River's Edge]

To me, wiring is an inhibitor, and you don't need that at this point

I have to disagree with this general statement, at this stage of development wiring can be very beneficial to set the direction of primary branches and to open the structure to aid back budding. I am not commenting on the current wiring job.
It is important that recognition is given for the proper use of wire in compacting and creating greater density with back budding.
Back budding is encouraged with a combination of techniques besides pruning.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I have taken most of the wire off the tree for this season, at least on all but one small branch. I think I will be using a guy wire to hold the main trunk back in place this fall.

 

[River's Edge]

I have taken most of the wire off the tree for this season, at least on the frail branches. I left the main structural wire on because I'm not sure that the curve has set, but I think I will be taking it off after the candles extend this year and using a guy wire to hold the branch back in place.

With the smaller branches light wire can be used to ensure that other portions are not shaded out. It is particularly important to keep interior portions closer to the trunk open to the sun as much as possible to aid back budding. In most cases the foliage on the thin branches further out does not become part of the final design in the end.
The primary focus for your tree is strengthening and increasing the foliage in preparation for further work on primary structure development.
This does not prevent one from a bit of wiring to aid in back budding, or setting direction on primary branching which can take a year or two to set in place. If you allow the candles to open and proceed growing vertically they will simple inhibit growth beneath their location. Fanning them out with light wiring will benefit back budding and open the interior branches closer to the trunk to more sun.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

It does look better than in the first 2019 & 2020 photos. But this tree is NOT ready for any work.

Over the first 25 years of my learning bonsai I killed many, at least 15 JBP, because I did not understand what a healthy JBP looks like. I was continually working weak trees, eventually working them to death.

You need one full growing season with BIG FOXTAILS of new growth. You don't have that yet. Just leave it alone. ZERO needle pulling, no pruning. You need every needle to rebuild energy. Leave it alone.

By leaving it alone now, it will develop strength, which will down the road lead to back budding. Needle removal does not promote back budding in a weak tree, it promotes dead branches. Needle pulling works only AFTER you have big foxtails of vigorous growth. This tree is not healthy yet. You are likely 2 growing seasons away from being ready to do work. Late summer 2022 would be the first time I would consider pruning or needle removal to "force" back budding.

You can wire, or rewire the tree now, but don't remove needles or prune off branches.

If you repot, add additional time to allow recovery.

It is hard to appreciate what a vigorous pine looks like if you never had one. Not knowing what a healthy pine looks like held back my personal development in bonsai for 2 decades. @River's Edge and myself are trying to help you avoid the trap I hampered myself with.

If you keep working weak pines, they will never respond like the books says they should, and they will die easily on you. Let this get really healthy, see how healthy you can get it. Once you get there, you will be able to be much more aggressive with styling.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Perfect. That was my understanding from what I've read. My plan for this year:

1. Fertilize strongly.
2. Cut back new growth to 4-6 pairs of needles after extension. (Or not... maybe wait to see how strong the new growth is?)
3. Wire new growth to let light to interior of tree.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan of action for this year? And I appreciate all the help and advice. I really do.

 

[River's Edge]

Perfect. That was my understanding from what I've read. My plan for this year:

1. Fertilize strongly.
2. Cut back new growth to 4-6 pairs of needles after extension. (Or not... maybe wait to see how strong the new growth is?)
3. Wire new growth to let light to interior of tree.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan of action for this year? And I appreciate all the help and advice. I really do.

Nope
Scratch #2
You are applying a refinement technique to a tree still in the early stages of primary development. Needle pulling and counting pairs is a balancing technique for refinement. You are after growth, growth comes from needles, removing needles stunts growth and inhibits development. Forget about needle size or balancing at this stage.
The more buds and candles you produce will begin to naturally reduce needle length and the balancing during refinement after producing much more foliage will be easy.

Fundamental. if you increase the growth and then cut back you get a stronger response. Back budding.
On the other hand if you continually reduce foliage you will just get a progressively weaker tree and weaker developmental responses.

This is what foliage looks like on a shore pine when it is ready to begin refinement.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Im lost somewhere. I was under the impression you cut back candles after extension specifically to stimulate back budding and get more candles for next season.

Youre 100% right, that Im not looking for reduction in needle size at this point. I want the tree to get healthy and believed that to do that, I needed more buds and foliar mass. Thats why I was thinking I need to stimulate back budding.

Thanks for the image of the healthy comparison. My concern is that by the time the tree is healthy, the branches will just be even longer and will be even less likely to bud back farther in on the branches.

So for the time being, I will not prune anything.

 

[0soyoung]

I think the key point is that the new foliage is the most productive - keep it for the summer, then ,,,

 

[River's Edge]

Im lost somewhere. I was under the impression you cut back candles after extension specifically to stimulate back budding and get more candles for next season.

Youre 100% right, that Im not looking for reduction in needle size at this point. I want the tree to get healthy and believed that to do that, I needed more buds and foliar mass. Thats why I was thinking I need to stimulate back budding.

Thanks for the image of the healthy comparison. My concern is that by the time the tree is healthy, the branches will just be even longer and will be even less likely to bud back farther in on the branches.

So for the time being, I will not prune anything.

Chasing growth back to the interior is a normal task, best performed with a strong healthy tree that has lots of foliage.
Cutting back candles on a single flush pine can be done for a variety of reasons and the timing will vary dependant on the desired outcome.
So the confusion comes in when you apply it at the wrong time in the development stage or the wrong time in the refinement stage. The approach and timing varies dependant on the stage of development and desired outcome.
One should always begin with a clear understanding of where your tree is at. Then decide the primary goal and apply appropriate care and techniques to achieve the primary goal. In this case the primary goal is to strengthen the tree and increase the amount of foliage. Allow all growth to extend unless it creates a structural problem with the trunk or primary branches.
Then when the tree has bulked up enough, this may take two or even three growing seasons. You can cut back in the fall to create back budding in the spring. When you cut back in the fall you do so to branches or shoots closer in the interior.
Cutting candles or pinching candles during extension is primarily to maintain structure and or prevent longer internodes and get bifurcation within a shorter distance at that site. It primarily creates back budding near by not so much further down the branch, particularly when there is limited foliage to begin with.
You are correct that allowing the branches to extend means further from the trunk, that is why we wire out branches to protect and encourage the foliage remaining in the interior.
In some cases it may be necessary to graft branches depending on the situation. It is not always possible to get back budding as far in as we would like.
Hope the additional comments help.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Thanks, again, for your detailed and nuanced response, Frank. It's very helpful. Specifically the notes on timing and when cutting will do what.

Ill let tree grow out this summer and maybe revisit in fall then, regarding cutting back, based on the growth. I am pleased so far with the tree's response from last year, and I do see more growth this year than last.

This may be a dumb question, but selective pruning this fall on branches I intend to remove completely wont help at all with backbudding on other branches, right?

I expect I'll need to graft this tree at some point, but Id like to do my best to reduce the amount of grafting necessary.

 

[River's Edge]

This may be a dumb question, but selective pruning this fall on branches I intend to remove completely wont help at all with backbudding on other branches, right?

Right!
But it will reduce the engine size on the tree at a time when you are trying to increase the horsepower.
Pruning weakens a tree, which is fine if that is your intention and does not interfere with other goals.
That is why in a previous comment I indicated that I only prune during development when there is a specific reason. Particularly if their is a risk to spoiling the overall design. For example, inverse taper, excessive thickening or I have reached the point that the remaining scar will be too difficult to close or too large for the particular site within the eventual design.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

 

[ghues]

Any updates?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I'll post some pictures tomorrow. I'll take some pics in the morning. Tree seems to be responding well this summer to just letting in grow out. I'm going to start fertilizing heavily again in august to try and get some good bud formation for next year. Definitely appears fuller than previous years, even though I did have some candle boring beetle damage in a few spots. I managed to kill them all by pinching those specific candles as I noticed them.