Pinus densiflora (Japanese Red Pine) from Telperion Farms - progression

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
2,952
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
I visited Telperion in November 2019 to look for a JRP and this is what I brought home (well, to Mirai first). I did its first styling this past weekend.
ved0SB9XTGSz2LotaEzohw.jpg
I repotted it January 2020:
egqGbbL7RLOI%hh1zstrRQ.jpg
When classes went virtual last year, Ryan decandled it for me in June. Since in-person classes were cancelled again in November, I had them ship it to me. It arrived in very good shape, but the needle tips didn't like the trip.
%93mNnfbSNqx3zj6Hm0ghg.jpg
I got to experience first-hand why the Japanese call these "glass pine." I did a wedge cut to bend the straight portion of the trunk and, during the bend, the outside portion of the bend cracked. Hopefully, there's enough xylem intact to keep the upper tree alive.
fullsizeoutput_2bd5.jpeg
 

bwaynef

Omono
Messages
1,246
Reaction score
1,291
Location
Clemson SC
USDA Zone
8a
That looks like a pretty good transformation, and I can't see a better use of the material than what you've done with it. Now it needs time.


I got to experience first-hand why the Japanese call these "glass pine." I did a wedge cut to bend the straight portion of the trunk and, during the bend, the outside portion of the bend cracked. Hopefully, there's enough xylem intact to keep the upper tree alive.
I lowered a ~1½" branch on a JRP this spring probably 15-20º, but used rebar instead of a wedge. I went really slow over the course of 3 "sessions" and managed to create a slight tear at the top of the crotch so I just packed it with cut paste and we're going to call it good for now. If I could eek out 5º more I'd be thrilled but its at the back and I think I can finesse it so its not an issue right now. (This tree's got bigger issues than this branch that's keeping it out of a show so maybe everything'll come together in due time.)

Luckily I haven't really noticed it being too fragile, but I go REALLY slow when I have to make big moves on it. I moved another branch a LOT more than this but it wasn't anywhere as substantial/old. I also hadn't learned that JRP have a reputation for fragility, so there's that.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,047
Reaction score
32,480
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
That looks like a pretty good transformation, and I can't see a better use of the material than what you've done with it. Now it needs time.



I lowered a ~1½" branch on a JRP this spring probably 15-20º, but used rebar instead of a wedge. I went really slow over the course of 3 "sessions" and managed to create a slight tear at the top of the crotch so I just packed it with cut paste and we're going to call it good for now. If I could eek out 5º more I'd be thrilled but its at the back and I think I can finesse it so its not an issue right now. (This tree's got bigger issues than this branch that's keeping it out of a show so maybe everything'll come together in due time.)

Luckily I haven't really noticed it being too fragile, but I go REALLY slow when I have to make big moves on it. I moved another branch a LOT more than this but it wasn't anywhere as substantial/old. I also hadn't learned that JRP have a reputation for fragility, so there's that.
Yes, JRP are known to be brittle.
 

Hartinez

Masterpiece
Messages
2,431
Reaction score
6,083
Location
Albuquerque, NM
USDA Zone
7
Good stuff Renny. Help me out cause I don’t know any better with pines. Are you at what you see to be finished height? Or is that top section sacrificial?
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
2,952
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Good stuff Renny. Help me out cause I don’t know any better with pines. Are you at what you see to be finished height? Or is that top section sacrificial?
We’ll see what options it gives me as it develops. I could see reducing the top a little, but I want it to remain tall and slender. I think JRP’s look best as elegant feminine forms.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
3,408
Reaction score
8,403
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
We’ll see what options it gives me as it develops. I could see reducing the top a little, but I want it to remain tall and slender. I think JRP’s look best as elegant feminine forms.
I like where you are going with this tree, will take time but has promise. I have noticed JBP tends to bark up more slowly than the JBP. Did you get an estimate of the trees age when you purchased it as the bark looks a bit aged. Expect the bend to heal fine in the end.
I wonder if development would be faster if a larger container was kept in play until compaction and additional foliage was developed?
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
2,952
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
I like where you are going with this tree, will take time but has promise. I have noticed JBP tends to bark up more slowly than the JBP. Did you get an estimate of the trees age when you purchased it as the bark looks a bit aged. Expect the bend to heal fine in the end.
I wonder if development would be faster if a larger container was kept in play until compaction and additional foliage was developed?
I think it is quite a young tree, but no, I didn’t ask what age. I’m not concerned about developing bulk on the trunk, as I want to keep a feminine image. I don’t think foliage development will be a big problem, since it is a multi-flush species. It had a good response to decandling last year.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,047
Reaction score
32,480
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Were you thinking in terms of back budding and ramification?
It also takes several repottings to transition a rootball from being “wild” to “contained”.

The way yours is mounded into that pot is not healthy. You’re likely to find that many surface roots will dry up and die when exposed to the sun they way they are.

It’s better, far better, to “go slow” and conservative when transitioning from field grown to bonsai pot. (Even if they used “root bags”!)

I found that my Telperion JBP had a LOT of rotten roots that I was unaware of when I got it. They used pine bark as part of their soil mix in their root bags, and it had started to rot, and breed root rot!
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
3,408
Reaction score
8,403
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Were you thinking in terms of back budding and ramification?
Yes partly, but mostly with developing more foliage before reduction to a shallow root ball for Bonsai pot. I have found that transitioning quickly slows the process of compaction and refinement. For example, I tend to transition from Telperion nursery pot or grow bag to an Anderson flat. This allows for better root spread from the original root work and better ramification of the roots. As the roots refine I get better density of foliage and back budding before transitioning to a smaller container. For smaller trunks I might transition to a grow box 11 by 11 by 5 inches deep. This allows me to keep nebari covered and still develop more outward root formation than downward. Helps with positioning in maintenance pot and show pot later that have less depth.
Your tree has plenty of lower branches to develop which is a great stage to be at. Will be interesting to observe the time required to compact and create more density of foliage with the amount retained at this point. Look forward to seeing the progress.
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
2,952
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
It also takes several repottings to transition a rootball from being “wild” to “contained”.

The way yours is mounded into that pot is not healthy. You’re likely to find that many surface roots will dry up and die when exposed to the sun they way they are.
This is a pretty standard Mirai repot. 😆
The tree has been in this pot for a year-and-a-quarter and has shown no ill effects. Surface roots are protected by top dressing. I’m not a youngster like you, Adair, I need to move my trees along!😉 If it hadn’t responded as expected, the work schedule would have been postponed. I think @River's Edge ’s discussion on developing the nebari in an Anderson flat has merit, but Frank, doesn’t it also result in coarser top growth?
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
12,647
Reaction score
37,229
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
The way yours is mounded into that pot is not healthy. You’re likely to find that many surface roots will dry up and die when exposed to the sun they way they are.

I found that my Telperion JBP had a LOT of rotten roots that I was unaware of when I got it.
I have had the same experiences.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,047
Reaction score
32,480
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I have had the same experiences.
It was the bark in the soil mix. I think the use of the bags worked great, but the soil mix, the bark in particular, wasn’t the best choice.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
3,408
Reaction score
8,403
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
but Frank, doesn’t it also result in coarser top growth?
It can, if you do not manage the growth, the point of extra growth is quicker development because the tree remains healthier throughout the process, instead of lengthy recovery and catch up periods. Appropriate timing for fertilizer, water management and degree of pruning will manage the growth so it is not too coarse for the stage of development.
It is personal perception, but I think some of your primary branches still need thickening, secondary branches need formation and retaining more foliage will aid in that development. Proceeding faster into refinement will slow that needed development.
It is simply a matter of timing the progression.
And a personal decision of how far you wish to push the boundaries.
I just raised the question for consideration, lots of room for individual direction. looking forward to the progress reports!
 

MrWunderful

Omono
Messages
1,404
Reaction score
1,792
Location
SF Bay area
USDA Zone
10b
I like the overall design. I have my fingers crossed for you for some back buds on that “bare” section 2/3rds the way up, unless that was part of your design.

Ryan tends to mound his trees up higher than I would choose, but it works with this tree.
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
2,952
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Candles in the apex are pushing strongly, so there’s obviously plenty of water moving past the wedge cut and partially snapped trunk. By the way, @River's Edge , in case you’re interested, I was reviewing my notes from my Pines III class. Ryan’s approach to pines is to get them into the intended size of bonsai container at the first repot in order to develop a compact root system. In his experience, cutting a coarse root will result in new roots only at the callus and having to cut it back later would set the tree back. So he feels that the greatest reduction needs to be at the first repot. I’m not refuting your experience, just giving the rationale for the Mirai approach.
74329F45-6580-40B8-B755-524A2B3DDC1B.jpeg
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom