Pinus Mugo infestation

[Ashy]

Hello,

i have had a healthy pinus mugo bonsai tree for some time now. About 2 months ago I began styling it with wire. It was doing fine.
It got an infestation of millipedes in its pot. I can see them everywhere crawling on the low part of the trunk. I am concerned they are eating the roots of my tree.

about a week ago I noticed the needles turning brown all over: the tree looks to be dying.

I thought the tree was being strangled by the plan that accompanied its tray. When I bought the bonsai tree it had what I believe to be oregano growing out of it. It took over and grew too large. I asked my husband to do so, at which time he found two copper head snakes living inside.
So I don’t know if it’s millepedes, over growth of the neighboring plant, or snakes. What are your thoughts? Here’s photos of the creepy crawly bugs inside.

 

[just.wing.it]

You had 2 copperheads living inside the rootball of your Mugo Bonsai?

 

[Ashy]

No not inside the root ball, inside the bonsai pot within the overgrown oregano.

 

[just.wing.it]

No not inside the root ball, inside the bonsai pot within the overgrown oregano.

Ahh. I see.
I dont know for sure....but I would think that an bug like that is a predator.....not a root eater....but maybe in their earlier stages they could be....I dunno.
Those look big for the millipedes .....the ones I see are smaller.
They resemble centipedes to me.

What part of earth are you inhabiting?

 

[Ashy]

In Atl GA.

my husband was able to remove all of the oregano growing in the pot. I think it needs to be repotted bc of the infestation but with its current condition I am hesitant of putting it through that additional stress.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Centipedes are predators, and these look like centipedes. Predators don't tend to munch on trees.
You styled a pine in spring? I'd think that might have something to do with needle browning, because pines tend to slip their bark if they're wired in the wrong season.

 

[Ashy]

Centipedes are predators, and these look like centipedes. Predators don't tend to munch on trees.
You styled a pine in spring? I'd think that might have something to do with needle browning, because pines tend to slip their bark if they're wired in the wrong season.

What does “slip their bark” mean?
Should I unwire the branches?

 

[Paradox]

What does “slip their bark” mean?
Should I unwire the branches?

In the summer, trees have more water and sap moving through their branches so in essence the bark is "loose or lubricated" for lack of a better term.

Wiring and bending the branches at that time can cause the bark to "slip" or move along the inner layers of the branch. This disrupts the flow of water/sap and can cause the branch to die.

So we wire most trees in the fall and winter, usually October to early March when the trees aren't as full of water. In mid to late March the sap begins to move and buds begin to swell and can be easily knocked off so we don't wire then.

The other issue you may have is Georgia may not have a cold enough winter for mugo. Mugo pines are an alpine species that need a cold winter.

 

[0soyoung]

In the summer, trees have more water and sap moving through their branches so in essence the bark is "loose or lubricated" for lack of a better term.

Indeed water moves up in the xylem (wood).
Indeed carbohydrates produced by photosynthesis in the leaves are dissolved in water that moves down the phloem tubes in the inner bark.
But these things always happen when the tree is active.

The cambium, we know, is between the bark and wood. Something must go on with the cambium about this time of year that makes the bark 'loose and lubricated' instead of wood and inner bark doing the functions they always do.

I've measured the rates of stem thickening through the season and the rate peaks about now (within a couple of weeks of the summer solstice). Cambium cells are responsible for radial growth of stems. I've torn the bark off a branch and, looking to the damage, it seemed like that layer of cells was 'juicy', so I suppose that there is a very thick layer of cambium cells, all with very thin cell walls about this time of year = it is easy to rupture the cambium cells.

I've also noticed that regardless of the time of year, it is easier to remove bark from a living or recently living stem (to make a shari, say) than it is from a stem that has been dead for some time. So, I suppose that living cambium cells have water in them and are thin-walled, making them easy to rupture. However, after they have died they are just cellulose cell walls and, like empty balloons, are harder to break than when they were full of water.

Wiring and bending the branches at that time can cause the bark to "slip" or move along the inner layers of the branch. This disrupts the flow of water/sap and can cause the branch to die.

Since I know that water and minerals are drawn up trough the wood by the leaves, slipping the bark or removing it from all around the stem as we do in air-layering will not kill the branch. In fact it often happens that the tissues regrow across this girdling of the stem ruining our air layering attempt. The branch lives, but boy is that 'bridged girdle' ugly!! So, first off, I think slipping the bark by wiring just creates and ugly spot on the branch (or maybe several of them - advantageous for making shari, but not so good otherwise). Of course, if one is so sloppy as to slip off all the bark and incidentally create a shari, it does kill that part of the branch that no longer has any phloem tubes to distribute the carbohydrates that are required to keep cells alive.



Long story short, my experience indicates that slipping the bark on a branch just makes a really ugly branch. That is why I either don't wire around this time of year (circa the summer solstice) OR I am VERY CAREFUL (I did wire some first-flush maple shoots today, for example).

 

[Paradox]

Long story short, my experience indicates that slipping the bark on a branch just makes a really ugly branch. That is why I either don't wire around this time of year (circa the summer solstice) OR I am VERY CAREFUL (I did wire some first-flush maple shoots today, for example).

I have had branches on juniper die when they were wired at the wrong time of the year

 

[Shibui]

There are many reasons for pine needles to turn brown. It is a mistake to just blame one obvious, easily seen factor. Watering (too much, not enough), pests, diseases, fungi light, nutrients and physical damage are all things I can think of that can cause needles to die off. Also older needles naturally turn brown around mid summer.
To better diagnose the problem we will need to see photos of the whole tree and some closer shots of affected areas.

 

[Paradox]

There are many reasons for pine needles to turn brown. It is a mistake to just blame one obvious, easily seen factor. Watering (too much, not enough), pests, diseases, fungi light, nutrients and physical damage are all things I can think of that can cause needles to die off. Also older needles naturally turn brown around mid summer.
To better diagnose the problem we will need to see photos of the whole tree and some closer shots of affected areas.

It was mentioned as a possible issue, not as the definitive cause.

I agree that it could be other things. It could also be its too hot down there in Georgia and the tree cant handle it (probably not, I just looked at the weather in Atlanta and its not that hot right now).

Yes without seeing pictures of the whole tree, we can only speculate.
I have to wonder though, as @Wires_Guy_wires said, centipedes are predators. What is in the pot that is making so many centipedes want to be there?
I dont know about anyone else but Ive never had lots of centipedes in my bonsai pots. Could whatever they are hunting be causing a problem?
Or was the snakes living in the pot causing a problem?

Also @Ashy I forgot to add in my earlier post that, no you shouldnt unwire the branches.
If it was the wiring that did it, its already done. Unwiring right now could only make it worse.

 

[Shibui]

The creatures pictured are millipedes -2 pairs of legs at each segment. Definitely not centipedes which only have a pair of legs at each body segment.
Centipedes are carnivorous. Most millipedes are detritus eaters. They feed on almost anything that is dead - leaves, wood, insects - but don't usually eat living tissue. A few species eat fungi or suck plant fluids, a couple of species are carnivorous like centipedes.
There may be good things to eat in the pot but more likely just there because it is a good hiding place and they venture out at night to search for food.

 

[Potawatomi13]

The creatures pictured are millipedes -2 pairs of legs at each segment. Definitely not centipedes which only have a pair of legs at each body segment.
Centipedes are carnivorous. Most millipedes are detritus eaters. They feed on almost anything that is dead - leaves, wood, insects - but don't usually eat living tissue. A few species eat fungi or suck plant fluids, a couple of species are carnivorous like centipedes.
There may be good things to eat in the pot but more likely just there because it is a good hiding place and they venture out at night to search for food.

Also they vastly prefer damp environs. Some few small ones as well as baby centipedes hang around under some of my pots. Have never bothered trying to remove them.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

If you're Ashy and the tree is too wet, you gotta find the moisture balance!

I got them in a mugo that is already compromised so I think they are more a sign of a problem than a problem themselves, but I wouldn't discount them as a problem completely.

Plus they stink.

The stink is toxic, which I can't find information on being harmful to plants, but in great quantities, I reckon they could be.

Sorce

 

[Colorado]

Are we just going to move past the fact that there were 2 copperhead snakes in the bonsai pot!? This I would like to see a photo of!

Sometimes I get nervous sliding my fingers under a grow box to pick it up off the ground for this exact reason

 

[Ashy]

Hi all,

thank you so much for your help. Here are some photos of the tree. It’s not totally lost yet! We have recently got a lot of rain. I wonder if
That was the problem?

 

[Ashy]

It was mentioned as a possible issue, not as the definitive cause.

I agree that it could be other things. It could also be its too hot down there in Georgia and the tree cant handle it (probably not, I just looked at the weather in Atlanta and its not that hot right now).

Yes without seeing pictures of the whole tree, we can only speculate.
I have to wonder though, as @Wires_Guy_wires said, centipedes are predators. What is in the pot that is making so many centipedes want to be there?
I dont know about anyone else but Ive never had lots of centipedes in my bonsai pots. Could whatever they are hunting be causing a problem?
Or was the snakes living in the pot causing a problem?

Also @Ashy I forgot to add in my earlier post that, no you shouldnt unwire the branches.
If it was the wiring that did it, its already done. Unwiring right now could only make it worse.

Hi @Paradox. Thanks for that I will NOT unwire. In the pot there is an over abundance of rolly pollys. The pot has had them living in there fore the last three years. And they have never harmed the tree. I was thinking maybe the centepieds moved in for the rolly polly happy meal. Also per your advice, I included photos of my tree. This is as of today. And yes Atlanta really isn’t that hot and we get a good winter cold to about 25 degrees. I don’t see why Pinus Mugo would have a hard time in my climate zone 7.

 

[Ashy]

Are we just going to move past the fact that there were 2 copperhead snakes in the bonsai pot!? This I would like to see a photo of!

Sometimes I get nervous sliding my fingers under a grow box to pick it up off the ground for this exact reason

@Colorado the snakes were small about 10-12 inches, looked like one female and one male. But still not something I’m trying to get bit by. The copperheads are everywhere here! Some get huge.

 

[Ashy]

The creatures pictured are millipedes -2 pairs of legs at each segment. Definitely not centipedes which only have a pair of legs at each body segment.
Centipedes are carnivorous. Most millipedes are detritus eaters. They feed on almost anything that is dead - leaves, wood, insects - but don't usually eat living tissue. A few species eat fungi or suck plant fluids, a couple of species are carnivorous like centipedes.
There may be good things to eat in the pot but more likely just there because it is a good hiding place and they venture out at night to search for food.

So you’re saying you do not think it is the millipedes that are causing my tree to have this needle browning problem?