Pinus Nigra help

[Thanasi]

I've had this Austrian Pine it in this pot for nearly 3 years. The trunk is about 4.4" wide and the overall height almost 4 feet. My plan is to cut the top off and repot it in a training pot some time in the spring. I just "trimmed to shape" some of the lower branches. On the last photo there are shoots coming from the trunk. I didn't think that pines grew new shoots from old wood.

My questions are:

when and how much soil should I remove in the repotting process
so I cut the top off now or should I wait to do that in spring
and finally any thoughts of how to style tree

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[River's Edge]

I've had this Austrian Pine it in this pot for nearly 3View attachment 343824View attachment 343825View attachment 343826View attachment 343827 years. The trunk is about 4.4" wide and the overall height almost 4 feet. My plan is to cut the top off and repot it in a training pot some time in the spring. I just "trimmed to shape" some of the lower branches. On the last photo there are shoots coming from the trunk. I didn't think that pines grew new shoots from old wood.

My questions are:

when and how much soil should I remove in the repotting process
so I cut the top off now or should I wait to do that in spring
and finally any thoughts of how to style tree

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Just a few points to consider before charging ahead.
I believe the best results can be obtained by staging the work over time, beginning with the transition from nursery soil and nursery rootball to Bonsai mix and Bonsai root ball formation.
This is a young tree still based on the appearance of the bark. The shoots are apparent at the whorl site which is normal for the species.
I would focus on repot and change of soil for the coming spring. For the first step I would advise 1/2 of the root ball to reduce the depth and sides. After recovery ( 1 or more years of growth) I would complete a 1/2 HBR in the spring and the other 1/2 HBR in the early fall. This would normally complete the change out of nursery soil to Bonsai mix in approximately 18 months. Assuming the tree responds well and remains healthy. I would not advise cutting back the trunk on a conifer at the same time as a repot. This I would time for the beginning of the following growing season after completing the repotting process. Typically at least 24 months from the beginning. This could easily take longer to respect the health of the tree and retain vigorous growth for development.
When developing a pine for Bonsai one typically develops the trunk prior to cut back. The next developmental step would be to select a new apical leader to continue the main trunk and provide some taper. Later on ion the process you will develop new branches to select for primary branches.
The design is not usually created from the original branches and original whorl internode spacing but rather from the new more compact branches and foliage created lower down on the trunk in the development process.
Some thoughts for planning as requested.

 

[Gabler]

Repot pines every three to five years in the early spring. Feel free to brush away as much soil as falls off while disentangling the pot-bound roots. Tangled roots are tough to pull apart, so it's inevitable that you'll lose most of the current soil. Prune back larger roots moderately, but retain as many of the finer roots as possible. Repot in a loose, granular bonsai substrate.

Prune and style at any time of year. Just don't remove too much of the foliage all at once, and bend branches a little bit at a time. As for the eventual style, start with a simple informal upright, and see how the tree develops over the years from there.

 

[Thanasi]

Repot pines every three to five years in the early spring. Feel free to brush away as much soil as falls off while disentangling the pot-bound roots. Tangled roots are tough to pull apart, so it's inevitable that you'll lose most of the current soil. Prune back larger roots moderately, but retain as many of the finer roots as possible. Repot in a loose, granular bonsai substrate.

Prune and style at any time of year. Just don't remove too much of the foliage all at once, and bend branches a little bit at a time. As for the eventual style, start with a simple informal upright, and see how the tree develops over the years from there.

Thank you very much. I've been involved in bonsai for the last 30 or so years and have many trees, most or all are deciduous. Only in the last 3 years or so I've gotten into conifers. Different animal when it comes to pruning. Thanks again!!!

 

[Thanasi]

Just a few points to consider before charging ahead.
I believe the best results can be obtained by staging the work over time, beginning with the transition from nursery soil and nursery rootball to Bonsai mix and Bonsai root ball formation.
This is a young tree still based on the appearance of the bark. The shoots are apparent at the whorl site which is normal for the species.
I would focus on repot and change of soil for the coming spring. For the first step I would advise 1/2 of the root ball to reduce the depth and sides. After recovery ( 1 or more years of growth) I would complete a 1/2 HBR in the spring and the other 1/2 HBR in the early fall. This would normally complete the change out of nursery soil to Bonsai mix in approximately 18 months. Assuming the tree responds well and remains healthy. I would not advise cutting back the trunk on a conifer at the same time as a repot. This I would time for the beginning of the following growing season after completing the repotting process. Typically at least 24 months from the beginning. This could easily take longer to respect the health of the tree and retain vigorous growth for development.
When developing a pine for Bonsai one typically develops the trunk prior to cut back. The next developmental step would be to select a new apical leader to continue the main trunk and provide some taper. Later on ion the process you will develop new branches to select for primary branches.
The design is not usually created from the original branches and original whorl internode spacing but rather from the new more compact branches and foliage created lower down on the trunk in the development process.
Some thoughts for planning as requested.

Thank you very much. I've been involved in bonsai for the last 30 or so years and have many trees, most or all are deciduous. Only in the last 3 years or so I've gotten into conifers. Different animal when it comes to pruning. Thanks again!!!

 

[River's Edge]

Here are examples of the response you can expect when the trunk is reduced. Notice the lower growth of new branches for possible design. Rather than the typical single whorls of branches with nothing between. These are Japanese black pine in development.

 

[Thanasi]

Thank you.

 

[Thanasi]

Just a few points to consider before charging ahead.
I believe the best results can be obtained by staging the work over time, beginning with the transition from nursery soil and nursery rootball to Bonsai mix and Bonsai root ball formation.
This is a young tree still based on the appearance of the bark. The shoots are apparent at the whorl site which is normal for the species.
I would focus on repot and change of soil for the coming spring. For the first step I would advise 1/2 of the root ball to reduce the depth and sides. After recovery ( 1 or more years of growth) I would complete a 1/2 HBR in the spring and the other 1/2 HBR in the early fall. This would normally complete the change out of nursery soil to Bonsai mix in approximately 18 months. Assuming the tree responds well and remains healthy. I would not advise cutting back the trunk on a conifer at the same time as a repot. This I would time for the beginning of the following growing season after completing the repotting process. Typically at least 24 months from the beginning. This could easily take longer to respect the health of the tree and retain vigorous growth for development.
When developing a pine for Bonsai one typically develops the trunk prior to cut back. The next developmental step would be to select a new apical leader to continue the main trunk and provide some taper. Later on ion the process you will develop new branches to select for primary branches.
The design is not usually created from the original branches and original whorl internode spacing but rather from the new more compact branches and foliage created lower down on the trunk in the development process.
Some thoughts for planning as requested.

Hi Frank. I was reading your recommendations again and wanted to ask what 1/2 HBR is? Also when you say repot, do you mean repot the entire tree without pruning any of it? I've been dabbling in conifers just these last three years and not very adept yet. Different advice from many regarding when to heavy prune and the sorts. Doing deciduous for over 30 years. Very different animals when it comes to pruning, root work etc. Thanks again for your help.

 

[sorce]

1/2 HBR is?

Technically a one quarter Bare Root.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Frank. I was reading your recommendations again and wanted to ask what 1/2 HBR is? Also when you say repot, do you mean repot the entire tree without pruning any of it? I've been dabbling in conifers just these last three years and not very adept yet. Different advice from many regarding when to heavy prune and the sorts. Doing deciduous for over 30 years. Very different animals when it comes to pruning, root work etc. Thanks again for your help.

Sorry I should have detailed the explanation. 1/2 HBR refers to the process of removing the soil on one side while detangling the roots and pruning that side. Leave the other side intact until the next repot.
For conifers it is best to retain all the foliage during a repot rather than prune. The reasoning is that the needles are the site for photosynthesis and the extra foliage will aid the recovery. When first starting out this is a good guide. With experience one will adjust the amount of pruning allowed for the circumstances due to the health of the tree, amount of remaining foliage or stage of development. Additionally the climate and time of year may affect the decision. Pinus Nigra are not as vigorous as Japanese Black Pine for example, so additional precautions are warranted.

 

[Thanasi]

Sorry I should have detailed the explanation. 1/2 HBR refers to the process of removing the soil on one side while detangling the roots and pruning that side. Leave the other side intact until the next repot.
For conifers it is best to retain all the foliage during a repot rather than prune. The reasoning is that the needles are the site for photosynthesis and the extra foliage will aid the recovery. When first starting out this is a good guide. With experience one will adjust the amount of pruning allowed for the circumstances due to the health of the tree, amount of remaining foliage or stage of development. Additionally the climate and time of year may affect the decision. Pinus Nigra are not as vigorous as Japanese Black Pine for example, so additional precautions are warranted.

Wow, I never heard just working on one side of tree. Have researched lots and it seems (articles, youtube, internet etc) do the whole tree at once. But it seems that they repot conifers that have been in bonsai pots, not nursery grown trees that have not been trained as bonsais. Is that the same for smaller size conifers purchased from nurseries? I've given my self an early xmas gift and bought a few other conifers and some deciduous from a specialty nursery in Connecticut. I currently have them in the ground (in their pots that I drilled holes in). I plan to repot them in colanders in the spring. Do you still recommend repotting and leaving all foliage intact? I know I'm asking lots of questions so thank you very much in advance!!!

 

[Thanasi]

Technically a one quarter Bare Root.

Sorce

Thank you

 

[River's Edge]

Wow, I never heard just working on one side of tree. Have researched lots and it seems (articles, youtube, internet etc) do the whole tree at once. But it seems that they repot conifers that have been in bonsai pots, not nursery grown trees that have not been trained as bonsais. Is that the same for smaller size conifers purchased from nurseries? I've given my self an early xmas gift and bought a few other conifers and some deciduous from a specialty nursery in Connecticut. I currently have them in the ground (in their pots that I drilled holes in). I plan to repot them in colanders in the spring. Do you still recommend repotting and leaving all foliage intact? I know I'm asking lots of questions so thank you very much in advance!!!

Ah the internet! technically the only knowledge truly required to respond on the internet is the ability to type! Not surprising that there is a range of responses. Conifers are different from deciduous and not all conifers are the same. you have gone from asking about Pinus Nigra to general approach questions lumping in variety of species and source. One should always adapt for species difference, health variables and climate.
Generally speaking I recommend conifers be treated with more care in repotting and retaining sufficient foliage to aid recovery. Deciduous store more reserves in the root system and can be approached in a different manner.
Nursery grown tree's typically are up potted not repotted. This often results in more crossing roots and difficulty in developing a properly formed rot mass for long term success in a bonsai pot.
When you start out using a less invasive approach is a good idea. The 1/2 HBR is one I recommend as a safer route to take. With proper technique and experience, coupled with proper after care other options can be just as successful. You have indicated you are new to conifers so that is my recommended route in your circumstances.
Think about it this way, you are compromising the root system, but maintaining the engine that provides the power for recovery. The foliage. Also you are maintaining half the root ball to ensure up take of vital moisture and nutrients. Another step you can take to improve results is assess the root ball before you start and work on the weak side first. This keeps the strongest side for best health while new roots are formed to assist the weak side. Then when you do the strong side later, the new root ball will be strong and vigorous on the former weak side. Win,Win.
Have Fun

 

[0soyoung]

A great thing about bonsai, or trying to make them, is that it is pretty easy to test claims and verify/refute what one reads. However, few do this. Instead they promulgate 'stuff', some of which is just lore enshrined by the faithful. The trouble is, that if you are a doubter, you've got to get organized so that you don't fool yourself. Self-discipline is rarely what one exercises in a hobby - it is unpleasant and that's not why most people undertake any hobby. Yet, if one grabs themselves by the ear and forces themselves to do it, the insight gained is pleasurable and the power of having done it and now knowing often elevates one's outlook and pleasure in what they are fiddling with.

 

[Thanasi]

Ah the internet! technically the only knowledge truly required to respond on the internet is the ability to type! Not surprising that there is a range of responses. Conifers are different from deciduous and not all conifers are the same. you have gone from asking about Pinus Nigra to general approach questions lumping in variety of species and source. One should always adapt for species difference, health variables and climate.
Generally speaking I recommend conifers be treated with more care in repotting and retaining sufficient foliage to aid recovery. Deciduous store more reserves in the root system and can be approached in a different manner.
Nursery grown tree's typically are up potted not repotted. This often results in more crossing roots and difficulty in developing a properly formed rot mass for long term success in a bonsai pot.
When you start out using a less invasive approach is a good idea. The 1/2 HBR is one I recommend as a safer route to take. With proper technique and experience, coupled with proper after care other options can be just as successful. You have indicated you are new to conifers so that is my recommended route in your circumstances.
Think about it this way, you are compromising the root system, but maintaining the engine that provides the power for recovery. The foliage. Also you are maintaining half the root ball to ensure up take of vital moisture and nutrients. Another step you can take to improve results is assess the root ball before you start and work on the weak side first. This keeps the strongest side for best health while new roots are formed to assist the weak side. Then when you do the strong side later, the new root ball will be strong and vigorous on the former weak side. Win,Win.
Have Fun

Thank you very much. Have a great day!!!