Ali Raza
Shohin
Sorry to bother, yes sure I will.
Pinus Nigra Hornibrookianna
- Thread starter River's Edge
- Start date
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Ali Raza
Shohin
Thank you Sir.PM sent.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
I have been watching mine daily now and see a few new buds forming. I think the fact that i did not get it early enough to do much pruning back last year has meant fewer chances for back buds this spring. Those that are forming are mainly at the bases of the current candles and in one other case further back. I am about ready now to cut the current candles back to about 4-6 needle pairs and hopefully that will get new buds forming for next spring. At least that is what Ryan Neil says about other 2 needle single flush pines. Gotta give it a try anyway. Otherwise the foliage is very vigorous and I check soil moisture every day and don’t water until the stick is almost dry. This pumice haydite mix with a touch of pine bark is so well drained I don’t think it is possible to over water it.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
The approach is the same as traditional for single flush, only difference is naming the number of needle pairs. Even then the actual practice varies given the candle location and strength of the candle. Some may be left alone. Will be waiting to see the response and updated pictures. Mine is perking along until fall when i will consider further cut back in prep for next spring.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
Ok, here are some photos showing a couple different buds. In one case they are originating from a bundle of needles at the base of a candle. In the second case the single bud is popping out of old wood. There are a couple like this on the tree. I did some more pruning to get rid of more branches that arise from the same point and avoid developing a massive whorl. I still have one at the apex that has been reduced from 6 to 4 so needs more. I am thinking of jining the apex branch circled in red and leaving the other 3 for now. If I get some good back budding and branch development I will cut this whorl back to 2 live branches. Next job is cutting the remaining candles back to 4-6 pairs of needles.
Here are the buds
And the apex that needs removal or jining
Here are the buds
And the apex that needs removal or jining
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Looking healthy for sure. I would consider retaining as much foliage as possible at this point to maintain vigor, my feeling is that will help to ensure a stronger bud back reaction next time you cut back.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
Well, I feel that I still need to cut back the candles in hopes of reducing their negative feedback on bud formation and release of any existing buds that might go anead and pop. As you see there is a lot of very vigorous foliage so I think I could just cut them back to 1/3 and still ahve lots of needles to support growth.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
That would be my approach for JBP, my experience with Pinus Nigra leaves me with a more cautious approach. Give your approach a go and then we can compare notes. I use that approach to protect and promote grafts by subduing the auxin levels. My tree is very much an experimental one, that i am trying to learn more about its tendencies. It would be great to have both approaches to learn from.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
Sounds good, there are also so many 1-2 year old needles further back that even with the candles cut back the tree still looks just as bushy. That should continue to provide the energy needs of the tree. One thing I find interesting is Ryan said in one video that the auxin is produced by the roots and drawn to the foliage that is evapotranspiring the most, thus the actively growing apical tissues. He said that by cutting the candles back this reduces the auxin and prevents the apexes from suppressing back budding and growth further back on the branch. However tnat must be an oversimplification since the old needles would be transpiring too. I seem to remember somewhere else reading that recent research has shown that auxin is also produced in the apical tissues which makes more sense. I was just watching a Peter Chan video on YouTube on pruning Scots Pine and he cut every candle back to force more back budding, but then those are known to back bud readily on old wood. I am somewhat heartened by @William N. Valavanis post above that says Austrian pines also backbud readily even on old wood and @Victrinia Ensor has said that about her tree. Too bad she isn’t around much any more to share her experiences.
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WNC Bonsai
Omono
Since I know that Peter Chan has developed large Austrian pine bonsai I asked him if we could expect them to back bud to any degree as aggressivly as the Scots Pine he pruned and styled in his recent video. His answer was yes they do and even more so! I like to refer to him fondly as Peter Scissorhands because of the aggressive way that he goes about pruning tree branches and roots, but he is an extremely successful bonsai artist and his videos are worth watching. His YouTube channel is Heron’s Bonsai and he has been very active in the last year posting a video almost every week.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I've been growing a p. nigra for the last several years. I got lots of budding low on the trunk having done nothing but let it grow - let the sacrifice run rampant, in particular. It is as though it takes a lot of vigorous growth to power up the roots to make the cytokinins that release buds.
I also have a few 4-5 year old JBP and JRP that I haven't ever pruned. I just let them grow and lots of buds popped on 'bare wood' last year.
I agree that this is the #1 job for epicormic back budding if not budding on pines in general.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
Had I seen your post earlier I could have left one side of the tree alone and pruned back the other side—maybe next year. Interesting how some folks swear by letting them run whereas others prune and cut back to release buds. Right now I’m a Peter Chan believer, so if he says prune I prune.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
A couple of thoughts for consideration. I cannot comment on Peter Chan's reasoning as i am not familiar with the context or what specific stage and species he is referring to.
However the following comes to mind, a quote from Eric Schrader regarding the confusion of tecnique application.
" It's likely the confusion that sometimes surrounds black pine care is due to the different work needed during different phases of a tree's life. Different care is also needed for trees that are growing slowly versus trees that are growing vigorously. Carefully examine your tree and try to determine how vigorous it is and what is needed based on its age and shape."
The other comment i would share is a direct quote from my teacher Boon! " only get strong bud back when you allow tree to grow out, Constant pruning sets back, prevents back budding, same with needle reduction, repotting, wiring, lack of water, lack of fertiliser. They all weaken rather than strengthen the response." All of the above help in reducing needle length and candle strength. great aids in refinement.
This has proven to be true in the pines i develop in my nursery.
I will be interested to see what happens with your tree and i will continue to share how my experiment is progressing.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
Yes, a lot of the problems with internet material is it often is not presented with adequate context and background. Victrinia Ensor has a beautiful black pine that she posted one thread on https://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/austrian-black-pine-imbedded-photos.4938/ and now has disappeared so we can’t ask her any questions on its development. A few really good progressions with these would be very beneficial. Hopefully this discussion we have been having will fill in some questions. With respect to your tree you seem to have removed a lot of foliage and hopefully are getting some good back budding now. I figure I am a year away from seeing the results of the pruning. One issue with these pines is that if you just let them grow wild they will form massive whorls due to all the candles they produce so you have to be willing to chop out some branches and candles.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
I have removed a tremendous amount of foliage within the first year of working with it. Although it was done in stages every couple of months it was still a lot for one year. I expect the tree will not respond as well for that reason. However, i was balancing the risk with the benefit of exposing the interior to as much sunlight as possible to aid backbudding.
Definitely could have chosen a slower approach. I probably would have if the material was of a higher quality and i was not just using it for experimental learning on the species.
And the congested whorls will still need to be reduced but as they are on the outer edges mostly, i will wait till fall and benefit from the additional photosynthesis during this growing season.
RickMartin
Omono
I have 2 of these pines that i purchased this spring. They are still in their nursery pots and im just letting them grow. They are so bushy you cant even see the trunk, but i will wait until fall to do anything. Im taking advantage of every needle i can get for photosystensis right now. Its been a very rainy growing season so far and they haven't seen much sun. They have recieved 2 sprays of fungiside. I will be taking notes on what i do and how the tree responds. Going to go slow on these two for sure.
Lazylightningny
Masterpiece
A unique approach to handling the roots. Thanks for the progression.
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River's Edge
Masterpiece
Hi Rick
Probably a good choice given the time of year. Will be interesting to see how yours progress, any pictures so far!
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Thanks, what part did you find unique?
