Pinus Nigra Hornibrookianna

RickMartin

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Hi Rick
Probably a good choice given the time of year. Will be interesting to see how yours progress, any pictures so far!
I will take some this afternoon after I get home from work. Mine are not the dwarf variety though
 

Lazylightningny

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Thanks, what part did you find unique?
I've always heard of hbr one side, but it sounds like you core out the center of the root ball. Does it leave a hollow that needs to be filled with bonsai soil? I'm trying to picture it in my mind. Or am I way off lol
 

River's Edge

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I've always heard of hbr one side, but it sounds like you core out the center of the root ball. Does it leave a hollow that needs to be filled with bonsai soil? I'm trying to picture it in my mind. Or am I way off lol
Exactly, the center core is removed from underneath, this is where the major problems occur with nursery trees, trees that have not been repotted correctly and still have a lot of native soil or poor compacted soil. Most often in these case the roots have rotted or died off and the area is simply a time bomb waiting to kill the tree.
In these cases it is best to remove the weakest area of root growth and replace with Bonsai soil to encourage new roots in the central core. If this is done less is done on the perimeter than usual,
The next repot is 1/2 HBR, and the one after that takes care of the other side with a 1/2 HBR. With a series of three repots the tree is completely repotted in proper soil.
This is also the method i reccomend for emergency repots as the central core is most often the problem. As always though one needs to alter ones approach based on what one finds during the repot. But basically it is wise to repot the weakest area first.
You are correct in that the hollow must be filled with proper soil and sometimes this is tricky to do. Fill while upside down with help and then flip while holding most in place. And then carefully chopstick in to settle and fill air voids. Hope the rambling makes sense.
 

RickMartin

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What did the label say for variety? Hornibrookianna does not have needles that length that i have ever seen. Also seem longer than typical Pinus Nigra.
I will look for the tags tomorrow after work. I save all my tree labels I just don't remember where I put them.
 

WNC Bonsai

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Hi Frank. Since I cut the candles back the tree has been pushing a lot of buds. Unfortunately 99% are not where I want them. Basically they are coming out at the bases of the candles I cut back. On many there are 2-3 new buds growing. The only ones that are further back are the ones I showed in the last set of photos. Maybe later this summer they will set some new buds back in the limbs and trunk in preparation fir next spring. It actually looks like these new buds that are forming right now may open and give me a second flush of growth. More later—Larry
 

RickMartin

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That makes sense i have quite a few of the Austrian black pines on my acreage in the landscape with long needles. They take quite a while to bark up compared to JBP.
They are just something to play with. I know they will never make great bonsai, but practice and document, that's the way I learn.
 

River's Edge

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They are just something to play with. I know they will never make great bonsai, but practice and document, that's the way I learn.
Actually they can make great bonsai, just a bit slower developing than JBP and JRP due to the vigor aspect. They are also slower to bark up. However they can reduce down in needle size quite well and are much more tolerant to colder climate zones.
 

RickMartin

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Are you talking p. nigra or is this about you?
Oso
I'm talking about this cultivar. The needles will shorten up but not enough, doesn't mean I won't try. Under all that foliage there are some pretty good branches.
 

WNC Bonsai

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@River's Edge Frank, as I said a few posts above although I am getting tons of buds at the base of the cut candles I am not getting any desirable back budding to speak of further back on the branches or trunk. I have had several people tell me that these pines back bud like crazy. I guess the question to ask is when and how far back? Have you seen any real back budding on yours yet? I am feeding mine regularly and based on the gowth of the other new buds it is healthy, just not cooperating.
 

River's Edge

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@River's Edge Frank, as I said a few posts above although I am getting tons of buds at the base of the cut candles I am not getting any desirable back budding to speak of further back on the branches or trunk. I have had several people tell me that these pines back bud like crazy. I guess the question to ask is when and how far back? Have you seen any real back budding on yours yet? I am feeding mine regularly and based on the gowth of the other new buds it is healthy, just not cooperating.
Yes i have some back buds further back on the branches. Also lots in the areas of cut back. ( these i have reduced due to congestion) i also took off any in locations undesireable. I was more aggressive in the cut back and removal of foliage so i expected that. I also expected a period of recovery to be needed because i removed so much foliage. The degree of back budding always depends on the timing, overall health of the tree, whether it was pumped up with fertilizer a couple of months prior and always the amount of cut back. Not to worry about yours, let the tree grow out for a year or two, fertilise and water lots then cut back again. Just be sure not too try too soon after a repot or if the tree has weakened for any reason.
I also have the habit of extra fertiliser and water when working a tree for development rather than refinement. I should note that i typically use home made organic fertiliser rather than off the shelf products.
I am not sure if you specifically made a point of strengthening the tree before cut back. That can make a difference.
 

bonsaichile

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What is HBR?
HBR=Half Bare-root. It is a technique to gradually replace the native soil in pines without stripping them fully of mycorrhizae. Essentially, you bare root one half of the root ball one year and the other half one or two years later.
 

bonsaichile

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Yes i have some back buds further back on the branches. Also lots in the areas of cut back. ( these i have reduced due to congestion) i also took off any in locations undesireable. I was more aggressive in the cut back and removal of foliage so i expected that. I also expected a period of recovery to be needed because i removed so much foliage. The degree of back budding always depends on the timing, overall health of the tree, whether it was pumped up with fertilizer a couple of months prior and always the amount of cut back. Not to worry about yours, let the tree grow out for a year or two, fertilise and water lots then cut back again. Just be sure not too try too soon after a repot or if the tree has weakened for any reason.
I also have the habit of extra fertiliser and water when working a tree for development rather than refinement. I should note that i typically use home made organic fertiliser rather than off the shelf products.
I am not sure if you specifically made a point of strengthening the tree before cut back. That can make a difference.
One question about timing. I am having similar issues than @Cofga with my ABP. It is young and vigorous, and I get plenty of candles every spring. I fertilize strongly and water it, and the tree is happy. Since it is still in development, I let the candles open and cut them to a pair of needles by mid-summer. Yet, I only get buds at the wound, and sometimes (rarely) not even there. When do you cut back? And also, by cut back, do you mean trimming a branch and not only the present-year growth?
 

River's Edge

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One question about timing. I am having similar issues than @Cofga with my ABP. It is young and vigorous, and I get plenty of candles every spring. I fertilize strongly and water it, and the tree is happy. Since it is still in development, I let the candles open and cut them to a pair of needles by mid-summer. Yet, I only get buds at the wound, and sometimes (rarely) not even there. When do you cut back? And also, by cut back, do you mean trimming a branch and not only the present-year growth?
I assume you are referring to Pinus Niger, Austrian Black Pine. As a single flush pine cutting back to one pair of needles after the candle has extended is risky. Normally one would leave half or one third of the candle, Partial decandling ( what you have described) is to shorten internodes or create bifurcation and is not cutting back to produce back budding.
Cutting back involves removing new growth and cutting back into old growth.
One question about timing. I am having similar issues than @Cofga with my ABP. It is young and vigorous, and I get plenty of candles every spring. I fertilize strongly and water it, and the tree is happy. Since it is still in development, I let the candles open and cut them to a pair of needles by mid-summer. Yet, I only get buds at the wound, and sometimes (rarely) not even there. When do you cut back? And also, by cut back, do you mean trimming a branch and not only the present-year growth?
To begin with i will assume by ABP you are referring to Austrian Black Pine a specific variety of Pinus Niger. What you have described as a method is partial decandling. You have left some of the new candle and this resulted in new buds on the remains of the current years shoot.
The best way to encourage new buds in the interior of the tree is to provide as much light as possible to the interior. Branch cut back and needle pulling are the primary methods used to accomplish bud back closer to the trunk. Other factors include suppression of auxin by wiring the branch in a downwards direction and positioning the bud tips outwards not up.
I use the term cut back to reference the practise of cutting the branch back into old growth to promote needle buds further back on the branch as well as adventitious buds through selective needle pulling. The timing that i prefer for this work is late fall through to early spring!
If one expects backbuding to occur then several factors are important.
Vigorous of the tree, younger branches with needles present, removal of enough needles to allow light and retaining strong needles in the sites you wish to encourage new buds. Other factors that can encourage back budding is wiring branches correctly when decandling or performing partial decandling to suppress auxin and promote side shoots.
One of the confusing factors is when the term decandling( which means removal of the new shoot) is applied to partial decandling ( retaining a portion of the new shoot). Single flush pines such as ABP are typically treated with partial decandling techniques.
Specifically the approach you described of leaving two needles on the new shoot is aggressive for a single flush pine and likely to create a weaker tree and a weaker response to new buds.
 
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