Pinus pumila

[Julio-Rufo]

Dear forum,

This season, while I was looking for some pine nursery material I happen to found a Pinus pumila (Japanese stone pine? Siberian dwarf pine?). I fall in love with is movement, bark and needle colour, it is a 5 needle pine and its colour is very similar to the JWP on JBP roots. Indeed, in the beginning a thought it was Japanese White Pine in JBP roots.

So far I have done almost nothing to it, just a bit of pruning and a few guy wires, and I was waiting until autumn probably to start working on it (prune & wire).

I wanted to ask here if someone has experience with this variety or has some knowledge about it, I have tried to find good resources but there is not much information about timing, techniques, etc.


Thank you,
Julio

 

[Potawatomi13]

Sorry but curious why they grafted this? Unless having plan to hide very obvious bad graft would not have bought this. Difference will increase with time.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

Sorry but curious why they grafted this? Unless having plan to hide very obvious bad graft would not have bought this. Difference will increase with time.

So, you sure this tree was grafted? As per what I was told, it is not grafted so I assumed maybe the bottom part starting creating the bark and that will be progressively extended to the top? I really not see the point of grafting this type of pine

 

[Paradox]

It's definitely grafted.

 

[Pitoon]

If they told you it's not grafted, I would avoid going back there to make any further purchases. The tree is grafted.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

But being grafted is not the "fatal flaw" some imply. This pumila probably has a clonal name, judging by the graft union, it is one of the slower growing cultivars.

I'd wire out the branches in late summer or autumn. Because it is slow growing I would only prune the stubs, or make the stubs into jin. Don't take of much more of the branches. Try to design to use everything you have. You can make a pleasant bonsai out of this tree.

 

[Pitoon]

But being grafted is not the "fatal flaw" some imply. This pumila probably has a clonal name, judging by the graft union, it is one of the slower growing cultivars.

I'd wire out the branches in late summer or autumn. Because it is slow growing I would only prune the stubs, or make the stubs into jin. Don't take of much more of the branches. Try to design to use everything you have. You can make a pleasant bonsai out of this tree.

They are also very slow to germinate. I'm getting ready to sow some seeds now for next year germination.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

thank you all for the clarifications regarding the graft, I think I still like its geometry and will try to do something beautiful out of it.

@Leo in N E Illinois thanks for your feedback, I assume it schedule is similar to the JWP? And also one flush?

someone knows what kind of pine they might have used for its roots? I still don’t get why they have done it

 

[Pitoon]

thank you all for the clarifications regarding the graft, I think I still like its geometry and will try to do something beautiful out of it.

@Leo in N E Illinois thanks for your feedback, I assume it schedule is similar to the JWP? And also one flush?

someone knows what kind of pine they might have used for its roots? I still don’t get why they have done it

Yes, they are similar to JWP. They grow very slow. Grafting is a faster way to reproduce a lot of trees quickly. If I had to guess I would say the rootstock is JBP as JPB has strong roots and grow fairly quick. Just looking at your tree I could take at least 20 scions to graft easily. To grow from seed would take a couple of years for the size of the scion I could take from your tree. So essentially your tree could make 20 new pumila's faster to the market, however they would be grafted.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

Yes, they are similar to JWP. They grow very slow. Grafting is a faster way to reproduce a lot of trees quickly. If I had to guess I would say the rootstock is JBP as JPB has strong roots and grow fairly quick. Just looking at your tree I could take at least 20 scions to graft easily. To grow from seed would take a couple of years for the size of the scion I could take from your tree. So essentially your tree could make 20 new pumila's faster to the market, however they would be grafted.

Yeah, I agree, I thought that in the beginning when I saw it, as it is very common to graft JWP on JBP, but I am a bit hesitant to think that this is the case, as the tree was bought in Switzerland in a nursery which has no bonsai material or JBP at all, and it was around 60 bucks, so I guess it was done on some kind of European pine?

 

[Pitoon]

Yeah, I agree, I thought that in the beginning when I saw it, as it is very common to graft JWP on JBP, but I am a bit hesitant to think that this is the case, as the tree was bought in Switzerland in a nursery which has no bonsai material or JBP at all, and it was around 60 bucks, so I guess it was done on some kind of European pine?

Most retail nurseries that sell to the public are resellers. They buy their plants from wholesalers and mark up the plants for a profit. JBP seeds can be bought easily online and grown practically anywhere. And being in the EU that tree could have came from any of the neighboring countries. Below is my 2021 forest of JBP.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yeah, I agree, I thought that in the beginning when I saw it, as it is very common to graft JWP on JBP, but I am a bit hesitant to think that this is the case, as the tree was bought in Switzerland in a nursery which has no bonsai material or JBP at all, and it was around 60 bucks, so I guess it was done on some kind of European pine?

In the EU my guess would be that the 3 most common species used for rootstock are Pinus sylvestris, Pinus nigra and maybe Pinus thunbergii. In the USA Pinus thunbergii is not hardy in the northern tier of states, and landscaping nurseries do not routinely use P. thunbergii. In the USA P. sylvestris, P. nigra, and occasionaly P. pseudostrobus, P.strobus and P. strobiformis are used as understock.

The end result is that you likely will not be able to determine what understock was used. Possibly with age the bark characteristics will give it away, but there is a lot of similarities between the bark of some of the commonly used species.

If you ever get into doing your own grafting, graft low into the root zone of the understock. Also, consider using Pinus strobus as the understock. The roots of strobus are very cold tolerant and very tolerant of wet conditions in winter. They can tolerate being flooded all winter. Most mountain pines would die if flooded in winter. With strobus as understock you do need to graft low, into the root zone, because strobus bark remains quite smooth until over 25 years of age.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

An update on this tree, first wiring

 

[Potawatomi13]

But being grafted is not the "fatal flaw" some imply.

Truth spoken. Given time upper tree also grows rougher bark. Ignore graft and still have great tree one day. Blow up shows apparent slow growing habit that gives you short internodes for compact branching. Interesting underused species to enjoy.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

Hi everyone,

I plan to repot this pine next I winter, but I was unsure about how many roots to remove / how conservative I should be.



My plan is to choose a training pot #10 or #9, here the comparison:

tokoname training pot #10



Tokoname training pot #9:



What do you think?
Any comment will be appreciated.
Thanks!

Julio

 

[Potawatomi13]

Grow box and develop more trunk, better bark several years.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

There's a technique used in smooth bark pines like Halepensis, maybe you can try it to camouflage the graft:

'To obtain a cracked bark, the bark is "punctured" repeatedly with an awl. In one or two years it produces the typical "pine cork".'

 

[Potawatomi13]

There's a technique used in smooth bark pines like Halepensis, maybe you can try it to camouflage the graft:

'To obtain a cracked bark, the bark is "punctured" repeatedly with an awl. In one or two years it produces the typical "pine cork".'

One could imagine also many unnatural appearing holes in bark.

 

[Julio-Rufo]

Hi all,

Strangely, this tree is producing a second flush of growth this year right now, without having it pinched, pruned, or decandled. The first flush was vigorous and really early this year, around February.

Did anyone ever experienced second flush on five needle pines? Theoretically it should be a single flush, long needle pine.


Best,
Julio

 

[Potawatomi13]

Potential problem appears as 3 whorl branches at top of tree. Plans for these or is optical delusion?