Pinus pungens: Table Mountain Pine -starting at the beginning.

[JTrips]

I pay more attention to trees these days since an large Acer palmatum down the block caught my eye a few months ago.
It was full of seed and I vowed to come back though before I got round to it, they had already fallen and I had to pick them out the grass.

While out in the woods a few weeks ago, a pine not familiar to me, also inspired some research.

I liberated a few cones, heated in the oven them as that's the quickest way to get at the seeds, pungens being triggered by fire.

The first cone seemed to yield nothing. It was about 2 years old from a tree about 10 years old.
So, I went back and collected a half dozen cones. Heated for 20 min at 210F.
Nothing fell out immediately.

So I put them in a bag
and after a week or so I got a little progress, and today this is how the collection stands.




I'm hoping a few more seeds will let loose without another heating, but maybe at least a few of these will germinate.


Being new to the various tree sprouting strategies, does this seed need a cold spell on the ground to sprout or just soak-n-go?


Thanks
JJJ

 

[bonsaichile]

Piece 9f advice? Get trees too. Those things will take almost a decade before you can have fun with them!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Wonder if heat on open cone killed seeds?

 

[Shibui]

Seeds should tolerate moderate heat for a short time.
After they are ripe the pine cones I am familiar with open on a dry day - usually late summer or fall and the seeds drop out and fly away. Next rain or high humidity the cones all close up again and look as if they had never opened. They continue to open and close with air moisture changes. Cones can remain on the tree for another 3-10 years before they fall.
I just looked up this species as you have obviously done. USDA says the cones are serotinous (glued shut with resin) but the amount varies so some cones can open on warm days while others need the heat of a fire to open. I guess that is an adaptation that allows the tree to hedge its bets and release a few seeds at different times. Cones can be opened in an oven at 210F for 2-5 minutes but will also open when stored near a furnace or heater at just 95F and can also open on the tree in hot weather so cones near the tips of branches may already be empty.
Looks like viability of this species is naturally low with viability listed as between 20 and 40%

My experience with species I have access to has been that there will still be a few seeds inside the cones that have previously opened but nearly all those will be dud seeds that won't grow. All the good ones seem to drop when the cones first open. If the cones you picked had already previously opened chances are the seed will not be viable. Look for cones that look like they have never opened.
Sound like the ones in shaded parts of P. pungens are last to open and may be the best bet for viable seed.

Good luck with getting some good seed and even better luck with growing some. Sounds like quite an interesting species.

 

[GGB]

I had a few seedlings from this species and was really excited because they are nearly impossible to buy online (especially now). Unfortunately The roots were already so hopelessly bad on them that I abandoned my efforts. Had wayy to many pine seedlings in my garden and nothing real to work on, "The great cull of 2018". anyway.. good luck, glad to see this species pop up again. I belive I've read that they are double flush species but who knows if that's true. Lots of experiments in your future. It's easy to write off species as "hopeless" because you've never seen one as bonsai, and there's usually reallly good reason for it. BUT in this case I think p. pungens just doesn't get used because they are commercially unavailable and even in nature they occupy a very small and super rugged territitory. Not saying they are the next JBP but they haven't been ruled out yet at least haha

 

[JTrips]

Thanks, all for the response.
I did not realize this was a case of open and shut, but it does make sense for the tree to "hedge the bet" releasing a few seeds here and there all along, but savings it's main fling for a fire event as long as possible. Truly an amazing adaptation, and very beneficial to the forest as a whole acting to patch up the occasional fire scar.

I've been wondering if the not-so-normal heat waves we've experience in the past decade or two may be exhausting the pungens' seed reservoir prematurely since fire is not prepping a low-competition seed bed. The seeds are over-spent on a false alarm so to speak. There are a few trees age 2-10+ that are pushed toward the local deciduous canopy away from the parent trees' cliff home, and there are not obvious signs of fire lingering in the area.


I somehow missed that opened cones close when humidity returns. Blown away and totally fascinating.
USDA was my main info source.

I just checked the cone sack and a few more seed heads have tumbled out and one seed with a wing.

I'm also concerned that I may have over done it with the heat time.

My overall goal with pungens is to see if I can get a small grove of garden trees growing at my new place that are not subject to the canopy competition that normal forces the species to very poor growing areas for most trees., These would be for seed and production by air-layering to make the tree more available bonsai people and general arborist.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would soak the seed 24 hours in water, then plant in a pot or seedling flat, put it in full sun. Outdoors. Cover pot with screen or wire mesh to keep birds and squirrels from stealing your seed.

They should sprout.

I found seed pretty "fire resistant". I have used a frying pan on the stove to heat Jack pine cones enough to open. The heat melts the resin, then the scales can lift up. The seed are "heat tolerant" for short periods.

Pinus pungens is one of the North American pines that I have always thought would make decent bonsai. Definitely worth exploring. The short-ish needles make it a good choice.

 

[JTrips]

Well, I've moved since last report. But new, good news - we have sprouts!


If you'll indulge a little background.

I'm from southern Appalachia, the Holston River Valley of VA but have finally(?) resettled in the Potomac River Valley. I'm still within sight of the Appalachian Trail which has always been the vein running through my blood ,so I'm happy. Though trees have never been a specific focus and I've never bonsai-ed, there are new species to explore, Hackberry for one. And some old.
Check out this pair of Sassafras.

I've never seen that girth on a Sassy.

Anyways grow-life has been mostly on hold since me wife and I started re-locating about 6 years ago to retire closer to kids and grandkids. We closed on our house 3/18 and started unpacking 40 years of memories and valuable detritus. More importantly I sort of got my propagator shelves set up enough to start some seeds. You can't put down roots without roots.



I've dusted off my seed bank and got a few maters and pepper and peas to sprout and I'm expanding into trees.
Much more technique and patience for trees than most veggies.

Back to P Pungens.
I just dropped the seeds from the heated cones in a fresh, quick batch of home-brew soil on a heating pad, a very quick spray of water about once a day. No strat, just soaked a day in plain water and looks like 3 of 20some popped in two weeks.

I also have an air layer attempt started out in the woods.

Also have sprouts going for :
Ponderosa Pine
Dawn Redwood
Italian Cypress
Siberian Crabapple

nothing else has come up.

Trees are hard. But I'm trying.
Someday I get a tree in a pot.
Thanks, for reading.
JJJ

 

[JTrips]

To date 2 of the three P. pungens made it through the summer. I have left them in their gemination pot and kept them from severe sun.

Currently I have them stuck in a ditch of compost with other tender plants that I'll wrap with a wind break when the time comes.


For current sowing, I have a stratification box (2'x6') set up for tree seeds this winter since I did so poorly on the refrigerator method last winter.

But I've collected a slew of J maples that I'll use to take another whack at the 'fridge method.

A couple days ago a pulled out some of my pungens cones and gave them some oven heat
170 degree for half hour, a cool down, and then a hour at 175.

The next day I gave then a shake and got about 25


then this morning got a slew more


bring me to 92 seeds
-

I'm concerned about sticking them in the ground right now as they may sprout immediately, so I'm inclined to wait a month or until a hard freeze
Probably should have left them in the cones longer and not been so fidgety.

Also, the air layer I started struck. My first success. I brought it in and thus far it survives, but looks like I mistook the ID. It is a three bundle leaf instead of two so, probably from the nearest Pitch pine or a hybrid. I did notice a new seedling or two nearby had popped though.
j

 

[Colorado]

Cool project. I don’t know anything about p.pungens as a species but those seedlings look pretty weak. More sun next year would probably help. I give all my pines as much sun as possible, even the young ones.

 

[JTrips]

Cool project. I don’t know anything about p.pungens as a species but those seedlings look pretty weak. More sun next year would probably help. I give all my pines as much sun as possible, even the young ones.

Thanks,
I thought they maybe should have done a little better. I'll try that approach next year.
j

 

[JTrips]

Another year another ring.

My winter shelter was the next best thing to a disaster.
Voles.
I sunk the various potted items in compost and made a windbreak.
Perfect vole caferetia.
I lost several of last years seedlings.
The pitch pine survived and has been moved to new soil in a training box and it greened up nicely.

I had better sprouting and growth on the new batch of TMP and a few others this year.


A few look bad, and are probably goners, due to over watering I think.

I need to go shake my pine cones and see if I can get another generation in the seed bed now that it's fall.

j

 

[JTrips]

Getting ready to sow a 2022 crop
Last years germ/survival rate was about 30%.


Yesterday I re-heated my older batch of cones and got 30 seeds
On a batch of first-heated cones, I got 100. So there are 130 seeds in the right hand pile. All from yesterday.

Today, 70 more total, the bulk from the new cones. No, re-heating today.
Yesterday's heating was 195F for 50 min.

Tomorrow all my grand-daughters will be here visiting (5-7yo) and we will give them another shake.
j

 

[JTrips]

Last years sprouts. Lost a couple over the winter and one just recently that a squirrel bit off at the ground.




Still a few popping but I'll lucky to hit 60 of 300 this year.





j