Pinus strobus- a few questions

Jzack605

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So there’s a pretty great P. Strobus at a local nursery I think I’m going to go back to and try to buy (as long as it is not gone). It’s a pendulous cultivar, but forgot the specific name. It was pretty great looking already and decent size. I plan on leaving in nursery pot for some time to let it grow out. From what I have read they can be difficult, but I’m willing to try.

What is best method for needle reduction OR creating nice topiary pads? I know candle pruning in spring is the best practice method for maintaining size, but can I snip the older needles?

Is it too early to do some pruning and remove some branches? Best waited until fall?

Wiring. I know they are known for branch breakage and wood splitting. Best if not wired due to this?

Photos will come once purchased.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Be prepared: I know just two people that want to try Strobus for bonsai, which is me and another guy here on the forum. I think it was wireme, but I'm not sure about that.

Little is known about which techniques to use, because simply put "they're not suited for bonsai" according to a lot of people.
I decided that the white pine protocol is the easiest to work with for me, for no particular reason. But it's best to start somewhere, I guess.
Needle reduction can't be done according to some. I have snipped the older needles on the upper and downside of branches, but that didn't stop it.
I did a bare root and it didn't flinch.


I crumpled mine from a 35cm specimen into a ball of half that size; no breaking, no damage. These pines are known for their flexibility and I went full yoga with wires. I don't recognize the cracking or breakage of wood you talk about.

Whatever you do, Strobus doesn't care. That's all I can report. Just keep them well watered. And be prepared to hear a lot of "It's a waste of time".
 

Potawatomi13

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So there’s a pretty great P. Strobus at a local nursery I think I’m going to go back to and try to buy (as long as it is not gone). It’s a pendulous cultivar, but forgot the specific name. It was pretty great looking already and decent size. I plan on leaving in nursery pot for some time to let it grow out. From what I have read they can be difficult, but I’m willing to try.

What is best method for needle reduction OR creating nice topiary pads? I know candle pruning in spring is the best practice method for maintaining size, but can I snip the older needles?

Is it too early to do some pruning and remove some branches? Best waited until fall?

Wiring. I know they are known for branch breakage and wood splitting. Best if not wired due to this?

Photos will come once purchased.

Does trunk have interesting movement near ground? Is there reverse taper or ugly graft under soil surface? Branches near base? Any secondary branches on main branches near trunk? If not best to pass up for better stock. Several here will say forget this species for Bonsai for innumerable "reasons". You seem a newcomer so better have thick skin to self proclaimed gurus with vast years of unquestionable experience hereabouts. Can you attach self to local Bonsai Club and attend Workshops with actual professional teachers? Financially possible to sign up for Mirai Live online teaching? Excellent teaching including many archived episodes and website blog. Can find some great looking Strobus on blog/forums;). Ignore naysayers.
 

M. Frary

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White pine do make good looking stumps.
 

GGB

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Putting them in good bonsai soil makes the needles grow long. I collected one from a clay bank with 2" needles. Once the root system hit lava rock the next round of growth was about 4" and I hadn't even fed it yet. I tried this species twice and quit. Cultivars can make a huge difference though, sometimes they behave more like other pines
 

just.wing.it

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I have a small one that's about 4 or 5 years old.
Plan on literati after some years of ground growing, which will start next year.
 

brewmeister83

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Putting them in good bonsai soil makes the needles grow long. I collected one from a clay bank with 2" needles. Once the root system hit lava rock the next round of growth was about 4" and I hadn't even fed it yet. I tried this species twice and quit. Cultivars can make a huge difference though, sometimes they behave more like other pines

I've noticed this as well, clay/rootbound pine around here invariably have shorter needles than their brethren in richer free draining soils. Has kept me from collecting several over the past few years. I did however find one stand in good free-draining soil recently that had needles only 2" long - I have about 50 seeds germinating now to see if it's an environmental or genetic characteristic of this stand - I'm hoping for the latter but only time will tell...
 

Vance Wood

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Be prepared: I know just two people that want to try Strobus for bonsai, which is me and another guy here on the forum. I think it was wireme, but I'm not sure about that.

Little is known about which techniques to use, because simply put "they're not suited for bonsai" according to a lot of people.
I decided that the white pine protocol is the easiest to work with for me, for no particular reason. But it's best to start somewhere, I guess.
Needle reduction can't be done according to some. I have snipped the older needles on the upper and downside of branches, but that didn't stop it.
I did a bare root and it didn't flinch.


I crumpled mine from a 35cm specimen into a ball of half that size; no breaking, no damage. These pines are known for their flexibility and I went full yoga with wires. I don't recognize the cracking or breakage of wood you talk about.

Whatever you do, Strobus doesn't care. That's all I can report. Just keep them well watered. And be prepared to hear a lot of "It's a waste of time".
Have you ever seen a credible mature bonsai in person or in a photograph on the net?????
 

Adair M

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Do yourself a favor and go to Google and enter “Eastern White Pine Bonsai”. Then click “images”.

What you will see is a few halfway decent pictures of bonsai. None great. Click on the best looking ones, to make sure it’s actually a Strobus! Google often shows images of trees other than what you search for.

As a comparion, do the same thing with “Japanese White Pine Bonsai”. You will be amazed! Not only are the trees shown far better in quality, but they’re far more numerous. And they actually ARE JWP.

What does that tell you?

It’s not that “the experts SAY they don’t make good bonsai”, the truth is “they DON’T make good bonsai”.

Why do you think Google posts so many mis-identified trees? It’s because it’s search engine is trying to find images to satisfy your request, and there aren’t any, so it shows images from web pages that just mention “Eastern White Pine” whether the image really is one or not. It does this because there aren’t any (or at least many) to show.

Many have tried. Many have failed. YOU won’t be the person who discovers a “secret technique” for making great EWP bonsai.

I have heard that someone found some witches brooms of EAP that they’re trying to cultivate, and it has shorter needles and shorter internodes, so maybe someday there will be something to work with. But not yet.
 

just.wing.it

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I've noticed this as well, clay/rootbound pine around here invariably have shorter needles than their brethren in richer free draining soils. Has kept me from collecting several over the past few years. I did however find one stand in good free-draining soil recently that had needles only 2" long - I have about 50 seeds germinating now to see if it's an environmental or genetic characteristic of this stand - I'm hoping for the latter but only time will tell...
I'm curious how they respond to being rootbound for a while...
I'm also curious how they respond to colander training...

Mine is in a good mix recovering from barerooting with almost nothing left, in spring of 17.
I'm waiting to see where the buds show up this year.
 

Cosmos

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This species is one of our common pines around here. I like their general silhouette and the needle color. The mature ones do grow a bit like the white pines you see from the Yellow Mountains in China, with long almost horizontal branches reaching out for the sun. See attached picture.

Having looked at a lot of young pinus strobus, I think an issue is that they seem to take forever to bark, even in good growing conditions. I still plan on collecting one someday, it is a nice tree in and of itself, even if you don't make a good bonsai of it.

Do yourself a favor and go to Google and enter “Eastern White Pine Bonsai”. Then click “images”.

What you will see is a few halfway decent pictures of bonsai. None great. Click on the best looking ones, to make sure it’s actually a Strobus! Google often shows images of trees other than what you search for.

As a comparion, do the same thing with “Japanese White Pine Bonsai”. You will be amazed! Not only are the trees shown far better in quality, but they’re far more numerous. And they actually ARE JWP.

What does that tell you?

It’s not that “the experts SAY they don’t make good bonsai”, the truth is “they DON’T make good bonsai”.

Why do you think Google posts so many mis-identified trees? It’s because it’s search engine is trying to find images to satisfy your request, and there aren’t any, so it shows images from web pages that just mention “Eastern White Pine” whether the image really is one or not. It does this because there aren’t any (or at least many) to show.

Many have tried. Many have failed. YOU won’t be the person who discovers a “secret technique” for making great EWP bonsai.

I have heard that someone found some witches brooms of EAP that they’re trying to cultivate, and it has shorter needles and shorter internodes, so maybe someday there will be something to work with. But not yet.

Are you really, earnestly, comparing one of the two main conifer species trained for centuries in JAPAN and CHINA with a species that is endemic to a portion of NORTH AMERICA and which not a lot of people have been experimenting on???

We could have the best species for bonsai ever somewhere in Canada or the US and not know shit about it simply because the amount of people trying new species for bonsai is so low compared to the size of the continent and its biodiversity.
 

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Wires_Guy_wires

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Have you ever seen a credible mature bonsai in person or in a photograph on the net?????
No, I lack the knowledge to distinguish them from poorly done and/or non-credible trees.

Of course I have, just never a strobus.
 

Adair M

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Cosmos, EWP grow all around here, too. I have seen dozens of attempts by bonsai practioners.

The best one I have ever seen is at the NorthCarolina Arboreutum, and is included on that Google search. Even still, as a bonsai, its just “Ok”. It’s FASTASTIC for an EWP, but for the effort involved, other species yield far better final results.

It’s not that no one has tried. It’s just that no one has succeeded!
 

Cosmos

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Cosmos, EWP grow all around here, too. I have seen dozens of attempts by bonsai practioners.

The best one I have ever seen is at the NorthCarolina Arboreutum, and is included on that Google search. Even still, as a bonsai, its just “Ok”. It’s FASTASTIC for an EWP, but for the effort involved, other species yield far better final results.

It’s not that no one has tried. It’s just that no one has succeeded!

This one?

Pinus_strobus_29zz.jpg
 

Jzack605

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The tree is definitely nice looking and seems very suitable for bonsai. Interesting movement in the trunk.

However I found a nice Cryptomeria and Cedric deodar for a good price. So I’m scrapping the P strobus for these two and (hopefully) cutting myself off for the rest of the season for plant purchases
 

brewmeister83

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I'm curious how they respond to being rootbound for a while...
I'm also curious how they respond to colander training...

Was Reading through Lenz again and came across the anecdote/observation that the only white pines with small needles he's seen were ones heavily attacked by pests - therefore a tree with most of the nutrients being sucked out of it. Incidentally, when researching the germination practices for Eastern Red Pine (Pinus resinosa) I found numerous accounts outlining that they should be germinated in an inorganic sandy medium - a rich soil actually hinders their germination and growth process, they prefer dry free-draining silty/sandy embankments. I've observed a stand of red pine mixed with white pine for several years on sandy/silty soil near a riverbank that's gradually had the understory fill back in and create a nice rich loamy layer on top of the silty subsoil. Guess what? The mature pines aren't looking too good and I haven't seen any young pines sprout in about a decade The EWP on the same site have developed some really nice flaky, plated bark that was probably in all likelihood due to the silty soil originally hindering growth and making for nice tight thin layers of bark, but because of the increase in organics to the soil they now have big puffy 4-6" needles and thick twigging suggesting much more growth than in the past. Perhaps between Lenz, what we've noticed about EWP in different soil types, and comparable native species we've been given the clue to EWP culture - perhaps the plant's physiology demands the complete opposite of some of the practices we're accustomed to. No organic component in mixes, reduced water, heavily reduced fertilizer, letting the plant get root-bound, maybe even substantial needle plucking to limit resources being generated by the plant itself - if we emulate what is seen in nature maybe this is what we need to do with this pine. Although, this approach sounds a bit like walking the line between life and death... I've got a bunch of EWP seedlings this year, could try this out on a few of them. Anyone else wanna give it a shot?
 

papymandarin

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actually that is sounding a lot like what is often advised for very mature trees (i can't confirm, i'm far from being there).
Just a side note in this thread, strobus may not be per se an excellent species for bonsai. but it seems it's making good root stock to graft JWP, at least it's usually the species they use here for regular nursery trees, strobus roots seems much more adapted to our wet climate/winters than JWP (and bark seem to look similar), i have one bought at the "corner-of-the-street-florist", it's growing strongly (well as far as a JWP can grow strongly) never protected it from rain or cold and never seen a pale yellowish needle colour as is often seen on this species in winter
 

0soyoung

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There are dwarf varieties of p. strobus. I have one called 'minima' that has 1.5 to 2 inch needles. 2017-09-27 11.53.56.jpg

Regardless, p. strobus can be treated just like JBP and will affect short needles. However, branches treated this way tend to rapidly weaken and die, basically because p. strobus will only bud at needle bases (fascicular budding), for all practical purposes. In this respect it is just like p. parvifolia with which one can make spectacular foliage pads with a lot of wire and careful placement of the foliage puffs. New shoots on strobus seem to be to stiff and easily broken and/or easily knocked off when trying to wire new stuff.

On the other hand, one can partially remove the foliage at branch tips anytime after it has hardened (fall, spring) and it will affect budding. Doing this before April/May generally will result in a new tip bud and some fascicular buds that will produce new foliage that will be hardened by early in the following summer (after the summer solstice and before the fall equinox).

Personally, I love the long, thin, soft needles but it isn't suited for conventional bonsai designs. Nicola Crivelli had a nice solution that I like a lot.
 
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