Pinus strobus- a few questions

[just.wing.it]

Anyone else wanna give it a shot?

I think one crucial thing is to plant them at an angle. That makes them much more interesting.
Mine is a hard leaner, and for 2 years now, I've cut back the spring candles when the needles are fully separated from the candle, leaving about 6 needle clusters.

Hoping this year I'll see some good back budding.

 

[just.wing.it]

There are dwarf varieties of p. strobus. I have one called 'minima' that has 1.5 to 2 inch needles. View attachment 198948

Regardless, p. strobus can be treated just like JBP and will affect short needles. However, branches treated this way tend to rapidly weaken and die, basically because p. strobus will only bud at needle bases (fascicular budding), for all practical purposes. In this respect it is just like p. parvifolia with which one can make spectacular foliage pads with a lot of wire and careful placement of the foliage puffs. New shoots on strobus seem to be to stiff and easily broken and/or easily knocked off when trying to wire new stuff.

On the other hand, one can partially remove the foliage at branch tips anytime after it has hardened (fall, spring) and it will affect budding. Doing this before April/May generally will result in a new tip bud and some fascicular buds that will produce new foliage that will be hardened by early in the following summer (after the summer solstice and before the fall equinox).

Personally, I love the long, thin, soft needles but it isn't suited for conventional bonsai designs. Nicola Crivelli had a nice solution that I like a lot.

That link is pretty dang cool!
I'm wit it ?

 

[Jzack605]

Where does one get JWP scions to graft onto EWP root stock?

Not that I would buy that Pinus for 79.99 for root stock.

 

[Adair M]

actually that is sounding a lot like what is often advised for very mature trees (i can't confirm, i'm far from being there).
Just a side note in this thread, strobus may not be per se an excellent species for bonsai. but it seems it's making good root stock to graft JWP, at least it's usually the species they use here for regular nursery trees, strobus roots seems much more adapted to our wet climate/winters than JWP (and bark seem to look similar), i have one bought at the "corner-of-the-street-florist", it's growing strongly (well as far as a JWP can grow strongly) never protected it from rain or cold and never seen a pale yellowish needle colour as is often seen on this species in winter

Papy, in Japan JWP was traditionally grafted onto JBP because it would generate nice bark far faster than other root stock. Going so also increased the growth rate of the JWP since the JBP roots are so vigorous. This did have some drawbacks, however. The JBP stock would thicken quite rapidly, and bark up, whereas the JWP does not, this makes the graft Union very obvious. And the tree looks a bit strange with rough bark low, and smooth gray trunk above. To hide this, they almost always tried to use JWP scions that would have a branch and trunk, so the first branch would be right at the graft union. Also, the JBP portion of the lower trunk usually had no taper. They would bend in curves, but there would be no taper. And finally, many of the grafts would fail when the trees got to be 50 or 60 years old. The different growth rates of the stock and scion cause the cambium layers to stop lining up. I have heard stories of the tops just coming apart.

The JWP scions are usually one of the dwarf cultivars. JWP seedlings vary a lot with their needle quality. The ones we see are the cultivars that grow the nice tight bundles of short blue/green needles. If you try to grow JWP from seed, it’s very unlikely you’ll get any of those. To get that foliage, you have to graft a bit onto something else.

So... to combat the problem of grafting onto JBP, they’re now grafting onto other types of stock. Scots Pine makes nice bark, but doesn’t thicken up as fast as JBP, so that’s an alternative. And EWP is very similiar to JWP in terms of trunk growth, so it’s very unlikely for the graft union to ever fail. But then, you’re stuck with waiting 30 years for the tree to shed the juvenile smooth grey bark, and begin to produce flaky bark.

Where to get JWP scions? From a JWP tree. No one sells scions. You will have to buy a tree with the needle quality you like, and use it as your scion source. Be aware there are dozens of JWP cultivars. Some better than others.

Since we are talking about JWP, be aware there are two cultivars that can be grown as cuttings, or even better as air layers. They are Zuisho and Kokonoe. The take rate as cuttings is very low, like 5%. But airlayering works well consistently.

 

[papymandarin]

yes indeed, actually i'm really not a pine specialist (just have this one and 2 mughos), but when i found this JWP grafted on strobus i wondered why they (or sylvestris grafted ones) were not more common here given it's seems to be common practice for landscape "regular nurseries" trees, because people often have problems with ungrafted JWP in our humid winters, or complain about the JPB grafted ones either for the bad look of the graft or the hardiness problems in some areas. Well maybe it's just because most JWP for bonsai are still japan imports instead of locally produced.

 

[brewmeister83]

Just to illustrate @Adair M 's point above for those new to pines wondering "how bad could a JBP/JWP graft be?"... this is a grafted JWP I picked up this year - P. parviflora "Blue Angel" - a sport of "Glauca" developed in the early 90's as "Blauer Engel" at the Hans Hachmann Nursery, Barmstedt Germany.



It's a cultivar considered to have the lightest blue needles of the 'glauca' cultivar group, which is why I bought it. When it was brought to the U.S. the folks at Jeddeloh Farms Nursery of Gresham, Oregon decided to register a trade designation and patent it as the translated "Blue Angel" in 2003... but I digress. So I bought it for its foliage color and also for the cones on it (want to harvest some seed and hopefully genetic variability will throw me a sport with the parent's color but smaller needles), but I sure as heck didn't buy it for the trunk or nebari. Tree is only 10 years old and the JBP graft is already looking severely mismatched, definitely going to be air-layering this one back onto its own roots:

 

[Adair M]

Just to illustrate @Adair M 's point above for those new to pines wondering "how bad could a JBP/JWP graft be?"... this is a grafted JWP I picked up this year - P. parviflora "Blue Angel" - a sport of "Glauca" developed in the early 90's as "Blauer Engel" at the Hans Hachmann Nursery, Barmstedt Germany.

View attachment 199076 View attachment 199075

It's a cultivar considered to have the lightest blue needles of the 'glauca' cultivar group, which is why I bought it. When it was brought to the U.S. the folks at Jeddeloh Farms Nursery of Gresham, Oregon decided to register a trade designation and patent it as the translated "Blue Angel" in 2003... but I digress. So I bought it for its foliage color and also for the cones on it (want to harvest some seed and hopefully genetic variability will throw me a sport with the parent's color but smaller needles), but I sure as heck didn't buy it for the trunk or nebari. Tree is only 10 years old and the JBP graft is already looking severely mismatched, definitely going to be air-layering this one back onto its own roots:

View attachment 199077

Good luck with the airlayer. Most JWP are difficult to layer, with the exception of Zuisho and Kokonoe.

 

[zen pebble]

I saw this grafted strobus photo online and is from a nursery in Australia called bonsai south. The page that the pic come from is http://www.bonsaisouth.com.au/forum/index.php/6-grow-and-show/41017-pinus-strobus-make-over . The bonsai artist is leong, the owner of the nursery I think.

 

[brewmeister83]

Good luck with the airlayer. Most JWP are difficult to layer, with the exception of Zuisho and Kokonoe.

Adair, I’ve only ever layered maples before, do you use the same “ring bark” method, or is this one of those instances where a tourniquet or window pane would be a better fit? Also, you wouldn’t happen to know of the parentage of “Glauca” before it came to Europe would you? Been trying to track it down to no avail...

 

[Adair M]

Adair, I’ve only ever layered maples before, do you use the same “ring bark” method, or is this one of those instances where a tourniquet or window pane would be a better fit? Also, you wouldn’t happen to know of the parentage of “Glauca” before it came to Europe would you? Been trying to track it down to no avail...

Sorry, I do not.

About airlayering JWP: I would refer to Japanese language magazines demonstrating the procedure. Somewhere in my collection is a photo illustrated article where they showed the whole procedure soup to nuts. It took two years. I don’t think they used a tourniquet. And I have no knowledge of that cultivar.

As an aside, I recently purchased an old Kokonoe grafted on JBP. VERY old tree. Grafted very low, but still, it’s a graft, and after 40 years, you can still see the V.

So, my plan is to graft JWP seedlings on above the old graft. For root grafts. Once those take, then use the “window” technique to open up spaces around the nebari between the new root grafts to induce the tree to put out Kokonoe roots. And then remove the old JBP roots. Hopefully, I’ll get enough Kokonoe roots for it to just use those and not have any grafts at all.

Long term project!

 

[0soyoung]

So, my plan is to graft JWP seedlings on above the old graft. For root grafts. Once those take, then use the “window” technique to open up spaces around the nebari between the new root grafts to induce the tree to put out Kokonoe roots. And then remove the old JBP roots. Hopefully, I’ll get enough Kokonoe roots for it to just use those and not have any grafts at all.

Wow. A real 'tour de force'!

 

[Adair M]

Wow. A real 'tour de force'!

I don’t know what you mean by that.

Here’s a picture of the tree on the bench:



It’s a nice, old tree. Unfortunately, it’s reaching the age at which the old JBP/JWP grafts fail. So, my plans are to create a new root system to prevent the tree from dying.

As I have said, bonsai is more than just creating small trees from seed and trunk chops and taming yamadori. Keeping bonsai for the long term requires advanced techniques to be judiciously applied.

In this case, what I’m doing is akin to doing a heart transplant.

 

[Jzack605]

I don’t know what you mean by that.

Here’s a picture of the tree on the bench:

View attachment 199143

It’s a nice, old tree. Unfortunately, it’s reaching the age at which the old JBP/JWP grafts fail. So, my plans are to create a new root system to prevent the tree from dying.

As I have said, bonsai is more than just creating small trees from seed and trunk chops and taming yamadori. Keeping bonsai for the long term requires advanced techniques to be judiciously applied.

In this case, what I’m doing is akin to doing a heart transplant.

Wow, EPIC tree. So are you planning on grafting the upper part to new root stock?

 

[brewmeister83]

Here’s a picture of the tree on the bench:

In this case, what I’m doing is akin to doing a heart transplant.

Love, LOVE, the character of that bark and the movement in the branching! Ok, I'm jealous, and if I had it on my bench I'd be doing the same thing - I'd use every technique at my disposal to save it. To think of that just "popping apart" one day...

Hopefully in 40 years I can figure out how to make a P. strobus, P. banksiana or P. resinosa look that good. If only P. echinata (shortleaf pine) grew a little more north...

 

[Adair M]

Love, LOVE, the character of that bark and the movement in the branching! Ok, I'm jealous, and if I had it on my bench I'd be doing the same thing - I'd use every technique at my disposal to save it. To think of that just "popping apart" one day...

Hopefully in 40 years I can figure out how to make a P. strobus, P. banksiana or P. resinosa look that good. If only P. echinata (shortleaf pine) grew a little more north...

Where I have pointed to in yellow is the graft union. So I will be grafting seedlings on there.



Yes, the “popping apart” can happen. Owen Reich told me about how he was repotting one in Japan, and the trunk just fell off.

 

[0soyoung]

I don’t know what you mean by that.

I mean just what I said.

Wow. A real 'tour de force'!

That emoticon means 'cool' = I think it is cool = I'm impressed.

But, maybe you really did build a 747 during home room, so this project is no big deal for you. Still .

When does the progression thread begin?

 

[Adair M]

I mean just what I said.

That emoticon means 'cool' = I think it is cool = I'm impressed.

But, maybe you really did build a 747 during home room, so this project is no big deal for you. Still .

When does the progression thread begin?

January. Or February.

I assisted Boon do this on a California Juniper. It had poor nebari, which isn’t unusual in collected junipers, but the planting angle and the funky exposed roots didn’t work well, and the owner felt the tree was just too tall anyway, so root graft we did! And this wasn’t just some project tree, no, it was a tree that had been in the Artisan’s Cup and displayed at the National Exhibition. By points I think this tree was in 5th place at the Artisan’s cup.

It’s difficult to stop and take pictures of the process while it’s happening if you’re actively involved! I think Boon did take a few, and posted them on his Facebook page. It was just him and me and the tree in his workshop at 8 in the morning before a workshop was to start at 9. This was about 2 years ago. The grafts are doing well.

 

[0soyoung]

Yah, yah. I want to see you do this kokonoe.

Seems so simple, but likely has so many traps. How many approach grafted roots do you need? I'm thinking 3 equally spaced around the trunk - but if one is wrong - yikes! maybe a dead tree. More approach grafted roots and it might be impossible to get enough auxin to pile up at the base of the koko to make koko roots grow.
Okay lets say 6 approach grafts. With these all as nicely functioning thunbergii roots, why would I try to put in on its own roots (by painstakingly removing one thurnbergii root at a time)? The traces/scars of the grafted thunbergii roots will be there for a long time afterward. The six probably would make a nice nebari, but then, how do you ever cut windows in between and separate it from the old root stock? We know of Owen's experience - why would you be so lucky after years of getting 6, say, approach grafted thunbergii roots established?

Seems to me that a new nebari on a juniper is a cake walk compared to what you are taking on.

But so what. You've got the tree. Let's get cracking!

 

[Adair M]

Yah, yah. I want to see you do this kokonoe.

Seems so simple, but likely has so many traps. How many approach grafted roots do you need? I'm thinking 3 equally spaced around the trunk - but if one is wrong - yikes! maybe a dead tree. More approach grafted roots and it might be impossible to get enough auxin to pile up at the base of the koko to make koko roots grow.
Okay lets say 6 approach grafts. With these all as nicely functioning thunbergii roots, why would I try to put in on its own roots (by painstakingly removing one thurnbergii root at a time)? The traces/scars of the grafted thunbergii roots will be there for a long time afterward. The six probably would make a nice nebari, but then, how do you ever cut windows in between and separate it from the old root stock? We know of Owen's experience - why would you be so lucky after years of getting 6, say, approach grafted thunbergii roots established?

Seems to me that a new nebari on a juniper is a cake walk compared to what you are taking on.

But so what. You've got the tree. Let's get cracking!

In planning to graft Japanese White Pine seedlings on, not Black Pine seedlings. I would probably do 8 or 10 root grafts. Later cut windows to see if I could get a Kokonoe roots.

I have a Kokonoe on its own roots that used to be grafted on JBP stock. We don’t know if it was intensional or not. But in the process of reporting it was discovered that there were two sets of roots. One set down low, on JBP roots. And another, above, of JWP roots. There were plenty of JWP roots to sustain the tree, so the JBP roots were removed. It’s now on just JWP roots.

That may have been done intentionally, to create a twin trunk tree. That is, bury the trunk down under the soil and hope it sprouts roots. Or, it could have been an accident. We’ll never know.