Pinus Sylvestries

[mcpesq817]

saldy the opinion you offered was almost nothing more than "stick it in the ground and let it grow" this is advise best saved for persons who post sticks in pots. It is not in keeping with the request of someone who not only asked for inspired thoughts of what exists but even hinted at where he may want to go with it. The intent (i believe) of the post was to invoke conversation about the potential a piece of material might have. If you can't see the tree, unless it's a 1-2-3 field grown pine with perfectly placed branching and a boring trunk line that looks like every other pine out there, that is undestandable. However it would be far more respectful and friendly to even just ask that the original poster to highlight the visual they see even tho sometimes hard it shows the interest you apperantly had in the tree even tho you could offer no constructive comments as to its design.

and btw voting with your feet is something you do silently and without making a show of it... its intended to be a possitive action and not one drowned in negativety.

"All future design consideration, comments and visions are welcomed, along with virts for those capable of expressing their views in that fashion."

I don't know Cquinn, but I think he offered a perfectly reasonable comment on the tree that was both respectful and friendly. And his response to the lashback to his comment was also in a very respectful manner.

Why jump down his throat? Because he didn't see the tree that the owner saw? That strikes me as a bit ridiculous. If a person only wants comments from people that agree 100% with the person's vision, then that person should more clearly state that. Otherwise, if you post a tree and ask for comments, then you should expect all sorts of comments - comments that coincide with your vision and otherwise.

And to be honest, I would have given the same advice that Cquinn did.

 

[irene_b]

Please forgive my poor attemps at virt making but I can see doing one or the other of like this.
Irene
In pic 1 is to bring the branch down.

 

[mcpesq817]

I didn't think this was bad. It's just what I would do. Sorry to all that were offended by it. This will be my last post on this forum. I'll check in when I'm bored at work probably, but I promise not to post again.

Hey Cquinn, you are 100% right. You didn't say anything bad. Please don't let people that can't take criticism push you away from the forum.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

@mcpesq817 - He did offer a reasonable solution to a piece of material that had no potential. however, that is not what Rick posted. There are several trees within the pictures posted (i see at least 3) and while cquinn's response was a valid option it was uninspired. Which give him no reason to feel insulted when Rick simply explained that doing as cquinn suggested would be a tragic waste of material. The suggestion that the tree lacked taper shows lack of inspiration since the suggestion to create literati from it was already made, and solves the taper issue. When I read a response like that it indicates the person doesn't think much of the material and their only solution is to chop it down and grow something. Sometimes that is the only option... but was FAR from the only option in this case. Maybe I interpreted more "let me help you young padawan" from cquinn than was ment. But in either case Rick is in need of little padawan training.

And I can take criticism with/from the best of em so please don't accuse me of not.

 

[mcpesq817]

@mcpesq817 - He did offer a reasonable solution to a piece of material that had no potential. however, that is not what Rick posted. There are several trees within the pictures posted (i see at least 3) and while cquinn's response was a valid option it was uninspired. Which give him no reason to feel insulted when Rick simply explained that doing as cquinn suggested would be a tragic waste of material. The suggestion that the tree lacked taper shows lack of inspiration since the suggestion to create literati from it was already made, and solves the taper issue. When I read a response like that it indicates the person doesn't think much of the material and their only solution is to chop it down and grow something. Sometimes that is the only option... but was FAR from the only option in this case. Maybe I interpreted more "let me help you young padawan" from cquinn than was ment. But in either case Rick is in need of little padawan training.

Perhaps Cquinn did not see one, two or three trees in this piece of stock, and his recommendation was to chop back and work a new leader to get taper. What's wrong with that? Again, here is what Rick said:

"All future design consideration, comments and visions are welcomed, along with virts for those capable of expressing their views in that fashion."

If Cquinn thought the better tree would be to chop back and work up a new leader, I don't see why it should be an issue if that is what he posts. That doesn't mean he is "uninspired." He didn't say the material sucks or in any way denigrate it. In fact, he actually asked Rick for more information about the material. Instead, he gets two nasty responses back.

I saw this happen all the time on BT with people like Walter Pall and others that were just trying to be of help - someone posts their tree, gets a comment they might not otherwise want to hear, and then they get all pissy.

And I can take criticism with/from the best of em so please don't accuse me of not.

Why do you think I was referring to you? I thought only Rick posted trees on this thread?

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I saw this happen all the time on BT with people like Walter Pall and others that were just trying to be of help - someone posts their tree, gets a comment they might not otherwise want to hear, and then they get all pissy.

This is nothing like that situation at all. I often agree that material is hopeless or needs to be chopped and regrown... this tree is not part of that group. regardless it no longer matters... Rick will create an excellent tree from this piece of material I have no doubt as the front he chose to work from looks quite interesting.

Why do you think I was referring to you? I thought only Rick posted trees on this thread?

You said "people" and just to make sure you weren't lumping me in the category I responded.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I don't believe in multiple quotes but I was off to supper when all that transpired.

For all,

If I do not need you r advice (which I quest) I would just do what I want or wanted to do.

That being said neither of us would learn anything!!

This is a bonsai forum where last time I checked was about furthering the art, not our possession.

It's not about me, or about you it's about bonsai.

I frequently do not comment on trees as I have nothing constructive to offer, but when I do I am straight to the point and will take the time
to explain my thoughts. The tree either moves me or doesn't. That is quite clear! If it doesn't I will tell you why.

Chris,

Are you that conceited that I wouldn't accept constructive criticism?? Please, no need to answer.

You said -

I saw a bunjin in this tree and welcome any other suggestions on direction to go with this.QUOTE]

Mr Quinn (really his name) gave advice that apparently you didn't want, then you trash him. I'll bet your panties are in a twist, if you don't want opinions Rick don't ask for them, you are getting cruder by the day, next time just say if you are better than me, offer your advise, that way we don't have to bother reading the post, your mastership.

Bill,

I take open criticism with the best of 'em, he offered neither. I respect you opinion, so please respect my "knotted panties".

If what Chris offered was constructive, then I believe we need a refresher on "constructive". The entire attitude was not asked for if one would take the time to read my post, instead of plant it out. That my friend is not constructive and I will leave it at that...

Rick, I agree with the Bunjin and can see this real well for this tree. Have you dug down to see what the roots are like on it? And have you picked a favorite front?
Irene

Without seing the roots up close and personal, 4r is probably my chosen front. The pics do not depict what this tree is or soon to become. There is a lot of reverse taper that I will need to contend with in the years to come. I think I will be succesful, but time will tell.

You said -


Thanks Bill! I just tuned back in to see what was going on and found that things had blown up for some reason. I thought I gave what was asked. I guess my opinion on the subject wasn't appreciated. I'll not offer it again. Yours truly..............Christopher Quinn Jackson.

Sorry Chris,

You gave all hat wasn't asked. If that is all you have to offer (not seeing any better) then yes your opinions and thoughts will be given due consideration and taken under advisement.

That's disappointing coming from someone I was really beginning to respect.

... just someone as I tired of all the BULLSHIT.

I prefer Critical Constructivism. It's much more pro-active, as it seeks solutions.

What about this step by step approach:

1. Select the trunk line that you see as the most interesting.

2. Cut short every branch that is NOT part of the trunk line, the only branch that should be left unpruned is the leader (the branch representing the final segment of the trunk line). Wire AWAY all the branches that seem to compete with the trunk.
This step#2 ensures that the energy from the branches is directed toward developing a trunk - your main goal at this point. Also, this step creates back-budding on ALL branches. Some of these branches will be selected later, others will be jinned.

3. Next year you work on the roots, there is nothing else to be done. Following this year's hard pruning, you should see small branches grow closer to the trun. This is vital, since your tree will be a bunjin, requiring foliage very close to the trunk.

4. The year after that you do more wiring of the newly created branches.


In my experience, if you don't select the trunk line very soon, and start pushing the foliage back on the rest of the branches, combined with some wiring, you will be looking at the same little bush, years from now. But if you do those things, you will get a big step closer every year.

The other thing I recommend is to take a picture of your tree, photoshop it into an image where you take away the contrast and add maximum light, and you print the picture. Your printout should be so that the page is almost white, and you can barely see a shadow of your tree. Then, following the outline of the tree, you draw over your sketch of the future image. Just like I did with my Hinoki in the "Cedar" thread.

This makes your sketching much easier, and the audience here can give you an opinion whether your goal is realistic.

(and don't be so harsh on Mr.Quinn, I have no doubt that he had the best intention in mind, with his advice).

Attila,

... and everyone else. I have the trunkline selected, and unlike others who have posted in the past will not leave you hanging. What I requested is where do you see this tree going? I know you have visions, Christ your from Californiiiiiiiiiiiia, smoke a joint

I didn't think this was bad. It's just what I would do. Sorry to all that were offended by it. This will be my last post on this forum. I'll check in when I'm bored at work probably, but I promise not to post again.

Chris,

With all due respect, your contributions won't be missed. You can dish it but can't take it!!! (at least from my perspective)

In closing something I will lower myself to, which I havenever done. Where are YOUR tress?

Now your dismissed!

PS: My attitude is cultivated by my surroundings.

 

[Rick Moquin]

saldy the opinion you offered was almost nothing more than "stick it in the ground and let it grow" this is advise best saved for persons who post sticks in pots. It is not in keeping with the request of someone who not only asked for inspired thoughts of what exists but even hinted at where he may want to go with it. The intent (i believe) of the post was to invoke conversation about the potential a piece of material might have. If you can't see the tree, unless it's a 1-2-3 field grown pine with perfectly placed branching and a boring trunk line that looks like every other pine out there, that is undestandable. However it would be far more respectful and friendly to even just ask that the original poster to highlight the visual they see even tho sometimes hard it shows the interest you apperantly had in the tree even tho you could offer no constructive comments as to its design.

and btw voting with your feet is something you do silently and without making a show of it... its intended to be a possitive action and not one drowned in negativety.

... thank you Eric for the eloquence in which I lack. Your thoughts conveyed in this message are indeed my request.

 

[grouper52]

saldy the opinion you offered was almost nothing more than "stick it in the ground and let it grow" this is advise best saved for persons who post sticks in pots. It is not in keeping with the request of someone who not only asked for inspired thoughts of what exists but even hinted at where he may want to go with it. The intent (i believe) of the post was to invoke conversation about the potential a piece of material might have. If you can't see the tree, unless it's a 1-2-3 field grown pine with perfectly placed branching and a boring trunk line that looks like every other pine out there, that is undestandable. However it would be far more respectful and friendly to even just ask that the original poster to highlight the visual they see even tho sometimes hard it shows the interest you apperantly had in the tree even tho you could offer no constructive comments as to its design.

and btw voting with your feet is something you do silently and without making a show of it... its intended to be a possitive action and not one drowned in negativety.

Well, Mr. Quinn is no longer here, apparently, and no longer respects me anyway since I stated my resonance with Rick's attitude, but Eric I think you have hit this nail on it's head. I haven't recently had many such responses to my trees here, but I used to, and the frequency of such responses was the deciding factor in my decision to leave BS a few months ago. Why those who are attracted only to traditional designs feel compelled to advise the rest of us repeatedly to make every more interesting tree into a little 1-2-3 sumo triangle of overwhelmingly boring design just eludes me, and is a big turn off to posting at all.

Oh well: at least we're fighting about bonsai for a change, rather than politics.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Oh well: at least we're fighting about bonsai for a change, rather than politics.

LOL i totally busted a gut!!! so true so true...


@Rick ... I can't wait to see this in the near future.


@Will ... We'll convince em all one at time.... or at least get them thinking. Something you are already doing with each new post

 

[Rick Moquin]

I don't know Cquinn, but I think he offered a perfectly reasonable comment on the tree that was both respectful and friendly. And his response to the lashback to his comment was also in a very respectful manner.

Why jump down his throat? Because he didn't see the tree that the owner saw? That strikes me as a bit ridiculous. If a person only wants comments from people that agree 100% with the person's vision, then that person should more clearly state that. Otherwise, if you post a tree and ask for comments, then you should expect all sorts of comments - comments that coincide with your vision and otherwise.

And to be honest, I would have given the same advice that Cquinn did.

... as previously stated, why do folks even bother to post their trees?

... The last thing I am looking for is agreement. That was also posted. I mentioned where I thought (and still do) where this tree is going. You do not have to agree with my direction, but if you don't please have the "common decency" to say why. Chris offered neither and his comments were given the value they deserve.

Mike (Ibelieve) if you have any issues to take up in private I will be more than happy to indulge you.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Hey Cquinn, you are 100% right. You didn't say anything bad. Please don't let people that can't take criticism push you away from the forum.

You know Mike, this entire thread has pissed me off. Please post one of your trees or better yet Chris, and I will honestly give you both "constructive criticism".

If you think I am thin skinned because I get my nickers in a twist, far from it! I will not say on an open forum what does. But you folks of higher intelligence can figure it out, and if you can't, e-mail me and I will be more than happy to indulge you. Now if this avenue is not appropriate, I can and will engage in a public debate if you... find it more suitable. I am tired of the BS going on on the forums these days. Full stop!!!

 

[Rick Moquin]

@mcpesq817 - He did offer a reasonable solution to a piece of material that had no potential. however, that is not what Rick posted. There are several trees within the pictures posted (i see at least 3) and while cquinn's response was a valid option it was uninspired. Which give him no reason to feel insulted when Rick simply explained that doing as cquinn suggested would be a tragic waste of material. The suggestion that the tree lacked taper shows lack of inspiration since the suggestion to create literati from it was already made, and solves the taper issue. When I read a response like that it indicates the person doesn't think much of the material and their only solution is to chop it down and grow something. Sometimes that is the only option... but was FAR from the only option in this case. Maybe I interpreted more "let me help you young padawan" from cquinn than was ment. But in either case Rick is in need of little padawan training.

And I can take criticism with/from the best of em so please don't accuse me of not.

... sorry for the delay, I was enjoying the evening with the missus on the patio.

My point exactly Eric. But please allow me the liberty to correct you and please fell reciprocal if I used the wrong term. I am creating a "bunjin" not a literati. This tree has no potential as a literati (IMO anyway).

wrt the rest of your post I would like to thank your calm word in expressing my thoughts. Chris's review was both insulting and uncalled for.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Perhaps Cquinn did not see one, two or three trees in this piece of stock, and his recommendation was to chop back and work a new leader to get taper? What's wrong with that?

Mike (presumption) that's why I loathe pseudonyms. The observation was off the cuff and perhaps similar to what you folks have seen and perhaps became accustomed to over at BT. I do not belong to BT for various reasons, but I and many others which is comes back up again so the tyupe of sduggestions you are accustomed to, continue over there...

I am not looking for nice tree, woow, what great piece of stock. I already know that (not to be conceited). Once upon a time folks could post a tree HERE and were given sound advice on what to do, which pitfalls to guard against etc... This is no longer happening. With BT's demise this site has turned into a clone of its former self. No thank you!!

I am on all the forums, I am not hard to find. Shouild anyone want a intelligent conversation once can be had, if you want to call a spade a spade, well..........

If Cquinn thought the better tree would be to chop back and work up a new leader, I don't see why it should be an issue if that is what he posts. That doesn't mean he is "uninspired." He didn't say the material sucks or in any way denigrate it. In fact, he actually asked Rick for more information about the material. Instead, he gets two nasty responses back.

... although I sollicited feedback, he did not take the time to read my post (period) I was treated like some neophyte (at least I felt like) with a stick in a pot, and this tree is anything but.

For your edufication:

This particular species is a dwarf cultivar with a maximum height of 3 feet, shit mine is only 34 inches. Therefore it has pretty much reached its height when coming to "landscape". You see I did my research. (not trying to be conceited or elitist, but please don't think I don't know what I am talking about). I may be practising our chosen hobby/craft or whatever in isolation, but please do not for one second insult my intelligence.

I saw this happen all the time on BT with people like Walter Pall and others that were just trying to be of help - someone posts their tree, gets a comment they might not otherwise want to hear, and then they get all pissy.

... is Chris Walter Pall? Is Grouper 52 Walter Pall? are you Walter Pall? and if not why are you endorsing Chris who has failed to show us anything, regardless of its worthiness or yourself for that matter. If it looks like a duck....

However, should Walter chime in (or better yet Robert Steven) then if they said plant it in the ground, I would take that advice under serious advisement and burn the thing.

 

[Rick Moquin]

LOL i totally busted a gut!!! so true so true...


@Rick ... I can't wait to see this in the near future.


@Will ... We'll convince em all one at time.... or at least get them thinking. Something you are already doing with each new post

Eric and Will,

I'm getting old and I hope I have the stamina because I sure don't need this BS anymore.

Will,

Send me a PM old buddy. We need to talk.

... on a side note politics is far more interesting these days.

Eric,

I have seen your work on that juni, how good are you at virts? I know Daniel's students have a few ideas lurking down under

 

[greerhw]

Rick, you type like I do when your drinking.....................

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Rick Moquin]

@Rick ... I can't wait to see this in the near future.

... my intentions/direction will be posted in the near future.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Please forgive my poor attemps at virt making but I can see doing one or the other of like this.
Irene
In pic 1 is to bring the branch down.

Irene,

Sorry for the late reply I was busy deflecting flack.

That is indeed pretty much where I am going, but as you know, it will be better. I know it's not fair because I saw the tree when I saw the tee for the first time. There is indeed 4 trees within, I did not post it to tease people, but rather to elicit visions. I guess we are not off to a good start, that's OK, I guess folks are watching a football match

BTW there is a future with the tree as his to include the second trunk. I admitted there was reverse taper, Will knows (as others) how to cure that.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Rick, you type like I do when your drinking.....................

keep it green,
Harry

ssssssssssshh

I only had two beers, besides when I am drinking as cops know, its the best polygraph. If you don't believe me ask you wife

 

[greerhw]

ssssssssssshh

I only had two beers, besides when I am drinking as cops know, its the best polygraph. If you don't believe me ask you wife

Remind me never to buy you the third one..............

keep it green,
Harry