Pinus Sylvestries

[Rick Moquin]

Remind me never to buy you the third one..............

keep it green,
Harry

Christ Harry with all the discussion surrounding this post, I haven't had the time to visit "the" bar yet.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

LOL I'll get the third one!!!


Rick , I use the term bunjin and literati interchangeably so to me they are the same. So I was just suggesting that you were gunna make something great. I have become more hands on these days and am not doing too much in the way of virts... but i see that waving trunk on the left (of the photo you posted as being the guide) as being the main trunk line and the right hand trunk carved and jinned. Thats the main idea I think and the one I liked best.

 

[Rick Moquin]

LOL I'll get the third one!!!


Rick , I use the term bunjin and literati interchangeably so to me they are the same. So I was just suggesting that you were gunna make something great. I have become more hands on these days and am not doing too much in the way of virts... but i see that waving trunk on the left (of the photo you posted as being the guide) as being the main trunk line and the right hand trunk carved and jinned. Thats the main idea I think and the one I liked best.

uuuuuuuummmmmmmmm, interesting!

I don't interchange the word Eric, for good reason. A literati is probably the most difficult tree to turn out convincingly, I mean a true Literati. If material is no good for nothing else then we turn to... I am not turning to, I am heading there. Will understands and knows my flair. Although I see Dan's influence these days, Will still has a certain "penchant" that we both share, and I believe he would call it bunjin Nonetheless Eric these are semantics and I will not dwell on them.

I will render a sketch (never done that one before) of what I see over the WE, and if I achieve my vision? Yeah, she'll be a stunner (Now I'm being conceited).

 

[mcpesq817]

... as previously stated, why do folks even bother to post their trees?

... The last thing I am looking for is agreement. That was also posted. I mentioned where I thought (and still do) where this tree is going. You do not have to agree with my direction, but if you don't please have the "common decency" to say why. Chris offered neither and his comments were given the value they deserve.

I think it's clear that Chris thought you didn't have enough taper in this tree and his suggestion was one way to resolve that. I still fail to see how that is "off the cuff" or "uninspired."

... although I sollicited feedback, he did not take the time to read my post (period)

Not true. From what I read, he told you what he thought, and then tried to engage in a discussion with you about the nebari. It looks to me like you just didn't want to hear that others out there might not agree with your opinion about the quality of the stock you're working with - to rephrase, how quickly you can get to a "finished" bonsai with your stock in its current shape or how you can maximize the potential of your stock.

I was treated like some neophyte (at least I felt like) with a stick in a pot, and this tree is anything but.

Maybe there are some self-esteem issues bubbling up here if you took such offense to his innocuous comments. Chris posted his comments - take what you want from them and leave the rest. No need to get nasty about it and take it so personally.

... is Chris Walter Pall? Is Grouper 52 Walter Pall? are you Walter Pall? and if not why are you endorsing Chris who has failed to show us anything, regardless of its worthiness or yourself for that matter. If it looks like a duck....

Hey, I'm not "endorsing" Chris - my whole point was that he made a polite comment to your tree that you took unnecessary offense to and decided to ream him out.

And just so you know, there are members here who are very skilled with fantastic trees in their collection that choose not to post pictures (I've seen their trees). I'm relatively new to the hobby so wouldn't place myself in their category, but the point is that just because people haven't posted pics of their trees does not mean that they do not have the "worthiness" to offer comments, especially when comments are solicited.

To be perfectly frank with you Rick, I've seen you offer blunt, and at times, pretty heavy handed commentary on trees posted on the various boards. Despite your tone in those posts being significantly harsher than what Chris posted to you, I don't recall the recipients flipping out like you did at Chris.

Mike (Ibelieve) if you have any issues to take up in private I will be more than happy to indulge you.

Actually, I don't have any issues. If you'd like to PM me to discuss, I'm happy to discuss with you there.

 

[Rick Moquin]

What about this step by step approach:

1. Select the trunk line that you see as the most interesting.

done more or less.

2. Cut short every branch that is NOT part of the trunk line, the only branch that should be left unpruned is the leader (the branch representing the final segment of the trunk line).

I am not following your thoughts here? What time line are you talking about? At present all unnecessary branching has been removed (for now). Indeed there is a good portion of branching remaining on the right hand side (other trunkline) that will be removed when a final styling decision is made. My object is to keep the tree has healthy as possible for the time being e.g the remainder of this season and carry out required action late winter/early spring. Is this train of thought wrong?

Wire AWAY all the branches that seem to compete with the trunk.

This is where I am loosing you Attila...

This step#2 ensures that the energy from the branches is directed toward developing a trunk - your main goal at this point. Also, this step creates back-budding on ALL branches. Some of these branches will be selected later, others will be jinned.

?? the trunkline is pretty much developed. Of course it will continue to develop but we are not developing a trunkline perse. My main goal (at least in my mind) is branching. All unnecessary garbage has been removed in favour of the budding that has occurred in places where the foliage had died back. As discussed outside of the remaining branches (for design consideration) I can take away anymore, and I hope that the judicial pruning that was carried out will refocus the trees energy to what remains. Am I on the right track here.

3. Next year you work on the roots, there is nothing else to be done. Following this year's hard pruning, you should see small branches grow closer to the trun. This is vital, since your tree will be a bunjin, requiring foliage very close to the trunk.

Yup, now we are on the right track that is exactly the timeline we are looking at.

4. The year after that you do more wiring of the newly created branches.

In my experience, if you don't select the trunk line very soon, and start pushing the foliage back on the rest of the branches, combined with some wiring, you will be looking at the same little bush, years from now. But if you do those things, you will get a big step closer every year.

Yup those are my thoughts as well. When I mentioned unimpeded growth and energy re-distribution during upcoming vegetative seasons, that is what I meant. If I leave the tree to grow unchecked then indeed I am back to square one, which is not what we want. This tree is in its styling stages and future development will be towards thechosen style.

The other thing I recommend is to take a picture of your tree, photoshop it into an image where you take away the contrast and add maximum light, and you print the picture. Your printout should be so that the page is almost white, and you can barely see a shadow of your tree. Then, following the outline of the tree, you draw over your sketch of the future image. Just like I did with my Hinoki in the "Cedar" thread. This makes your sketching much easier, and the audience here can give you an opinion whether your goal is realistic.

Now this is something I did not know and will give it a whirl. I wondered why your Hinoki was so washed out, indeed that is definitely a quick way to a sketch.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Mike,

I will be sending a PM later today. This thread did not go as planned. Yes there are issues that will be taken up in private.

 

[rockm]

Disregarding advice about the trunk on this tree is not really advisable.The trunk has more than a few "issues" that need work.

Most notably is an apparent inverse taper developing near the bottom--near the first branch. If you proceed with an aggressive fertilization plan this condition might get worse--the knobs of branches will only add to the problem in the coming years.

This tree is not really great literati material. The literati style has, unfortunately, become a last refuge of sorts for mediocre or even bad trunks. Literati trees actually have to have exceptional trunks, the more spare the foliage, the more important the trunk's presence. This tree has more potential in the "naturalistic" style.

Additionally, the upper branching on this tree is already too stiff to be of much use for bonsai. The lower branches are too loose in their emergence from the trunk to be of future use without addressing them--the lowest branch is a "rainbow" arc that needs some serious attention, as that insipid arc should be worked into a more drastic angle.

 

[Rick Moquin]

The problem seems these days that unless it is collected material (but flaws are ok on collected material )or it is costly bonsai material then anyone else doing bonsai outside of these confines are wasting their time. That is what is infuriating to myself and others who may not have raised these issues as openly as I have perhaps.

Bonsai is not about owning world class trees, it's about cultivating trees in a pot. To some bonsai is more art than actually bonsai. That is OK as well, but their are many nuances and each should be able to enjoy this passion without ridicule.

I do not have access to yamadori nor bonsai material. The closest avenue (and they do not ship) is 800 miles. There are no clubs in my area (although we are working hard to get ourselves together) there is only a handful of us in the area, we hear about each other at the various nurseries but for some reason the info is not being decimated. But we persevere nonetheless.))

So one works with what is available. I enjoy what I am doing and have a nice collection of trees that gives my wife and I and our neighbours great satisfaction. Are they world class trees? Hell no! Will they ever be? Once again no. Does that mean I/we can't enjoy them? No, au contraire.

So to say I may be conceited in dismissing advice is pretty much conceited in itself, because of the impression conveyed on the boards these days wrt the aforementioned concerns. So yes I get my nickers in a twist when one can't enjoy bonsai within their own means both financially or otherwise.

Disregarding advice about the trunk on this tree is not really advisable.The trunk has more than a few "issues" that need work.

Believe me if this tree did not have potential it would have stayed there. Perhaps people's views or regard for the material were skewed because I mentioned it came from the sale pile. Maybe next time I will state it came from a reputable xyz nursery. Hey I have seen some pretty shitty material coming out of Brussels and they are a bonsai nursery, so let's not go there.

I mentioned the tree has flaws but it is something I believe with time I can work around, in fact I believe I can. The photos are not conveying what I see. I am a lousy photographer and working hard to get better at it, as well as my bonsai.

Most notably is an apparent inverse taper developing near the bottom--near the first branch. If you proceed with an aggressive fertilization plan this condition might get worse--the knobs of branches will only add to the problem in the coming years.

... and yes I realize this, this is perhaps an area that gets me going as well, folks assume everyone know nothing or the impression given. Did folks actually read my post or just gave it a cursory glance and commented. Those branches are not part of the final tree and more than likely will be removed late winter prior to wake up. They are only there at present to preserve the flow of energy after the initial pruning of unwanted material. Beside a side that was completely denuded due to lack of light, this tree was overgrown throughout, in other words quite bushy.

This tree is not really great literati material. The literati style has, unfortunately, become a last refuge of sorts for mediocre or even bad trunks. Literati trees actually have to have exceptional trunks, the more spare the foliage, the more important the trunk's presence. This tree has more potential in the "naturalistic" style.

... and that statement is indeed a large presumption on your part. I did not acquire the stock, not knowing what to do with it. I did not fall back as the only thing I can do is a bunjin. I bought it to develop a bunjin. I know folks use these terms interchangeably, but I don't. IMO their is a difference between a Literati and a bunjin. And no, this tree has no potential in becoming a Literati.

Additionally, the upper branching on this tree is already too stiff to be of much use for bonsai. The lower branches are too loose in their emergence from the trunk to be of future use without addressing them--the lowest branch is a "rainbow" arc that needs some serious attention, as that insipid arc should be worked into a more drastic angle.

... once again you have failed to read my post. The lower branches will not be part of the tree, so forget them. Wrt the upper branching they are not as stiff as you may believe and most of them will be gone in the developmental phase. Remember I am giving myself 5-10 years pn this project, don't expect a tree overnight as we know this is not about to happen.

There is going to be a lot of realistic carving happening to correct flaws etc... to include but not limited to the graft union at the base of the trunk. I have only had this tree for 3 days asome folks are expecting miracles with it. Hey I never siad this was the greatest material ever, that was presumed. I said I believe I can do something worthwile with this relatively cheap material.

At the end of the day the only folks that need to enjoy this tree is the missus and I. If the rest of the world don't then that's ok too. I have nothing to prove to anyone, I am just trying to interact with folks that share the same passion. And in the end who gives a rats ass if it doesn't conform to the rule book or someone interpretation of what a bonsai should look like.

If I can pull off my vision, then yes it will be stunning, not a world class tree but graceful and beautiful.

Because of all the hoopla that surrounded this thread, the tree will never be updated until the tree and I have reached our destiny

... and folks wonder why no one post their trees anymore, but would rather discuss politics and religion

 

[rockm]

I read your post. I posted what I thought were rather benign dispassionate suggestions and opinion. You asked for opinions. You got some pretty constructive advice.

You take offense at what you see as presumptuous, somehow subversive opinions, yet have no problem in making your own specious set of assumptions about people who have offered advice. The people posting didn't start off with "world class" yamadori. I'd suggest that about 99 percent of those who post here started off with--and probably still work with--stock like this. Working with World Class Collected material is hardly something that the majority of bonsaiists can sustain. For the most part, we've worked trees like this for years. No one is belittling you here. Your offense is misguided and alienating.

No one here suggested, from what I can tell, that the tree has no potential. I'm no stranger to the "sale pile" at nurseries. Finding a tree with potential there can be quite exciting, but such finds can also blind us to the true nature of the find.

"The photos are not conveying what I see."

That's often the case with photos. They don't lie. Pictures expose flaws that are often overlooked or masked by what the tree "will be" down the road. Pictures tend to strip away romantic notions and lay bare faults--take a picture of your best tree--you WILL find something that needs correcting 90 percent of the time. About 50 percent of the time, that fix will probably be a big one. I've noticed this more than a few times with my own trees.

FWIW, Bunjin and Literati are the same:
http://www.bssf.org/articles-and-stories/john-naka-on-bunjin-gi-bunjin-style/

So, in a nutshell, It would be a mistake to remove lower branching on this tree to create a literati/bunjin tree. It's trunk is not a great candidate for this style. I mean no disrespect in making that observation. I am only trying to get you to consider other options. I have found that styling decisions made at the nursery are often the wrong way to go.

 

[Vance Wood]

Some thing that wasn't captured in the photos was the trunk movement. I took shots about every 10 degrees of rotation and although visible on the bench, the movement is flattened in 2 D. Those pictures that were uselsss were discarded.

The following picture shows the bend at the juncture that can be accentuated in future design considerations. The tree is remarkably flexible. Trunk base of 3 inches with a height from soil at 34 inches. This tree does not have a 6:1 ratio nor do I believe I wish to apply it here. It has close to a 12:1 ration which makes it suitable for a bunjin (maybe wrong word, but I don't see a literati there neither).

The second pic shows a better appreciation of the trunk line albeit difficult from photos.

The third pic shows the movement quite nicely and once the foliage has compacted and chaced back to the trunk should make an interesting bunjin.

Hi Rick: I just got into this thread, I've been out of town and away from the Internet. I assume the tree is a Scots Pine? It looks to be Scots. I know you are no novice so I will not suppose some novice solutions. As to it becoming a Bunjin/Literati I agree, but I also believe that the style you are looking for is more attuned to something undefined by the classical liturgy. What I see is the top foliage designed in a somewhat Bunjin style but the trunk will be thicker and more tapered than the classical model; a form I prefer by the way.

As to the base of the trunk: I can only assume things here because you have not posted pictures of that area but I do see what appears to be a reverse taper at the base, the probable reason for the Plant in ground group. I believe that this can be resolved if in fact, it really does have an inverse taper, by piercing the trunk at the base, something I have had good success with using Scots Pine. It will take a few years for the results to show but the process will bear fruit and be worth the effort. If it is done right you will never notice or see the scars of the process. If this might be something you wish to consider let me know and I will share my technique with you either here or in private.

I believe the tree is worth working on and as you say may never become a world class star, it will still become a credible and beautiful bonsai sometime in the near future. It never ceases to amaze me how limited some people's vision for a tree is so narrow as to not see potential in raw material unless it is dug from the mountains or cultivated as some sort of pre bonsai. I mean no offence to those who fall into that category, I only wish to point out that if you do not see the bonsai in this piece you are not challenging your vision enough to make you grow beyond the I want it now way of thinking. It is true that some pieces of material would profit from growing in the ground but only if it serves a purpose that is every bit as thought out as the purpose of making it into a bonsai from the as is condition.

 

[rockm]

"It never ceases to amaze me how limited some people's vision for a tree is so narrow as to not see potential in raw material unless it is dug from the mountains or cultivated as some sort of pre bonsai."

The same holds true for people working on pre bonsai from a nursery. Limited vision is limited vision. Assuming a design five days after getting a tree and refusing to consider any alternative--(or worse considering any alternative that might be offered as an affront to one's abilities and standing)--is limiting.

 

[pauldogx]

It never ceases to amaze me how limited some people's vision for a tree is so narrow as to not see potential in raw material unless it is dug from the mountains or cultivated as some sort of pre bonsai. I mean no offence to those who fall into that category, I only wish to point out that if you do not see the bonsai in this piece you are not challenging your vision enough to make you grow beyond the I want it now way of thinking.

Vance--Can I suggest a third group perhaps??? How about those who may be able to see a tree in it ---but are not moved enough by any tree they might find in it to want to work on it.

I think it is entirely possible that you may be inspired to work on something and someone else may not.

I don't entirely agree with the statement about not challenging your vision enough. Can you see and make a tree?? Sure...but you may not be moved to do so!!

 

[Rick Moquin]

The same holds true for people working on pre bonsai from a nursery. Limited vision is limited vision. Assuming a design five days after getting a tree and refusing to consider any alternative--(or worse considering any alternative that might be offered as an affront to one's abilities and standing)--is limiting.

... I sure hope this is not in reference to me, because the only solution I dropped was chop it down to the first branch and grow it out. That IMO was not an option. I asked for ideas and have received some. I have received some good tips on some obscure techniques I was unaware of, that I will look into. Wrt designing a tree in 5 days, that my friend is your assumption once again. The main design is pretty much decided, but it will be refined, tuned or altered to extract maximum potential from this material. Edit: I posted the tree for excactly those reasons, so if I missed anything perhaps others saw things differently. However, the negative side of this debate can only see that I asked for comments and then refused them if it was not in line with what I sought. That my friend is pure unadultered BS. I have several trees that have gone through changes as time progressed, and all for the better.

There has been and continues to be far too many presumption by everyone wrt this thread.

Vance,

Yes it is a Scots and this one is a dwarf I come to find out. Please explain that bottom trunk technique, I seem to recall something about it but it is too vague to remember correctly.

 

[Vance Wood]

... I sure hope this is not in reference to me, because the only solution I dropped was chop it down to the first branch and grow it out. That IMO was not an option. I asked for ideas and have received some. I have received some good tips on some obscure techniques I was unaware of, that I will look into. Wrt designing a tree in 5 days, that my friend is your assumption once again. The main design is pretty much decided, but it will be refined, tuned or altered to extract maximum potential from this material. Edit: I posted the tree for excactly those reasons, so if I missed anything perhaps others saw things differently. However, the negative side of this debate can only see that I asked for comments and then refused them if it was not in line with what I sought. That my friend is pure unadultered BS. I have several trees that have gone through changes as time progressed, and all for the better.

There has been and continues to be far too many presumption by everyone wrt this thread.

Vance,

Yes it is a Scots and this one is a dwarf I come to find out. Please explain that bottom trunk technique, I seem to recall something about it but it is too vague to remember correctly.

The tree is a dwarf? Does that mean it is grafted? If so this may change things a bit. However I am assuming that the graft, if there is one, is good enough that it is un-noticeable in which case a trunk thickening program may be useful. The technique I prefer, mostly because it does not leave scars that are visable, is to pierce the trunk with a small dental hook. Some may slice the trunk as it produces faster results mosltly because the damage is larger, but it does leave scars. I use the dental hook or pick, pressed into the trunk with the thumb of one hand until you feel a change in the resistance of the penetration signifying that you have gone all the way through the cambium into the phloam. I use a series of many penetrations mostly on the side of the trunk where the defect seems most obvious. This can be repeated over a series of years but the result will take about three years to manifest itself even if you do it only once.

Paul: As to seeing the possibilities in a tree but unwilling to develop those possibilities is really a moot point in regard to this tree and this thread. Let us assume it is true, you recognize a possibility, why would you suggest something different even so far as chopping the trunk and or planting the tree in the ground? This seems to me to be contrary to the request of the initial poster requesting ideas for the tree as is; or am I missing something. This would in fact be misdirection and should be viewed as an expression of the old reliable I would not wast my time on this tree, in which case silence would have been preferable to a passive condescension. The simple reality is that not every body views raw material the same way. Some would think this tree a waste of effort having access to really great collected material in their view it would be. But this does not justify what basically is advise to cast the tree out, which is basically what the chop and regrow suggestion is in fact,--- without the dumpster. My policy for suggesting things for hopeless material is to leave alone those things I believe to be a waste of time unless specifically asked. This tree is not hopeless and falls into the category of not getting kicked out of bed for eating crackers.

 

[mcpesq817]

Edit: I posted the tree for excactly those reasons, so if I missed anything perhaps others saw things differently. However, the negative side of this debate can only see that I asked for comments and then refused them if it was not in line with what I sought. That my friend is pure unadultered BS.

There has been and continues to be far too many presumption by everyone wrt this thread.

Rick, with all due respect, the negativity in this thread started when you blasted Cquinn (and subsequently others) for comments on your tree that did not mesh up with your particular plan for the tree. Now, if you had mentioned that this was a dwarf cultivar earlier in the thread and that you didn't have the time or patience to do a trunk chop and grow a leader, then maybe people would not have suggested a trunk chop. But you didn't, and hence some of the comments you received.

Nobody is saying that your stock is not nice, or that you are a "neophyte" or otherwise trying to "insult your intelligence." People are just trying to help.

I'm only two years into the hobby, but have read all I could (books, magazines, internet) and have tried to view exhibited trees when possible. I've bought stock in the past that at the time seemed to be really nice pieces to work with. However, what really opened my eyes up to what "works" and what good stock really is came when I had the opportunity to see in person, up close and personal, and spend time around, fantastic trees. What's also helped is showing my trees to friends or listening to people comment on a tree at club meetings. I went to a Ponderosa workshop last fall, and Larry Jackel asked us all to pick out a front of the tree and explain why we came to that decision. I thought I had picked a pretty good front, but Larry and another club member suggested something different. I didn't fell embarassed or belittled or anything like that, but thanked them and mulled over their suggestion. And you know what? They were absolutely right.

You mentioned that you are practicing in isolation - you might want to consider listening to people who have experience with working with stock like this and hearing the suggestions they may give as to how best maximize the potential of your tree. Like I said, people are just trying to help. You're free to take or leave their advice.

As for collected versus nursery stock, to me, nice stock is nice stock. I don't care where it comes from. I have some collected trees, some material from bonsai nurseries and regular nurseries, and seedlings that maybe one day when I retire decades from now will be worth something. Now that I have a little better of an eye for material, I'm looking for nicer material - regardless of the source.

Best regards.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Rick, with all due respect, the negativity in this thread started when you blasted Cquinn (and subsequently others) for comments on your tree that did not mesh up with your particular plan for the tree. Now, if you had mentioned that this was a dwarf cultivar earlier in the thread and that you didn't have the time or patience to do a trunk chop and grow a leader, then maybe people would not have suggested a trunk chop. But you didn't, and hence some of the comments you received.

Mike,

With all due respect...

The only comment I received, by the folks that I am disagreeing or appear to be disagreeing with is:

It's probably going to be at it's best if you cut back to one of those low branches after your happy with the trunk thickness and train it as a new trunk extension.

Other's have offered comments and direction and those have been accepted openly.

However I applaud you supporting Chris when I did jump down his throat but I just reread the entire thread and outside of supporting Chris you have condemned every word I said. In saying that I am not receptive. You have not made one suggestion wrt where to go with this tree.

In closing I am sorry I have wasted all of your time.

Vance, Eric and Will I will be in touch.

 

[pauldogx]

Vance--thanks for the reply and I was referring to material in general not Rick's tree in particular.
I agree with you about the misdirection aspect. Perhaps the eristic argument about what is worthy material and what is not is best left to it's own thread.

 

[rockm]

"rt designing a tree in 5 days, that my friend is your assumption once again. The main design is pretty much decided, but it will be refined, tuned or altered to extract maximum potential from this material. Edit: I posted the tree for excactly those reasons, so if I missed anything perhaps others saw things differently. However, the negative side of this debate can only see that I asked for comments and then refused them if it was not in line with what I sought. That my friend is pure unadultered BS. I have several trees that have gone through changes as time progressed, and all for the better."

There is no "negative" side to this "debate." There are simply opinions that you sought out, some of which you seem extremely sensitive to, my friend. That's what will ultimately hold you back with this tree and probably most others. Refusing everything except that with which you agree and condescending to those who have offered advice, are not really a terrific ways to learn.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance--thanks for the reply and I was referring to material in general not Rick's tree in particular.
I agree with you about the misdirection aspect. Perhaps the eristic argument about what is worthy material and what is not is best left to it's own thread.

I agree to a point. However what is worthy is subjective for the most part fitting into the experience level and the vision of the artist involved. When we start making objective assessments on material we often show our own limitations either in an inability to recognize the bonsai within difficult material, or our inability to think beyond the classical definitions of what a bonsai should look like and how to get there. We tend to reject material that is not perfect, either because we do not have the ability to work with less than ideal material or for other less than friendly reasons. For many new to the art the only refference point they have is the classical model. They therefore set out to duplicate what they know will yield a decent bonsai----or so they think.

For what ever reason and blaming no one this post shows an example of why a lot of people are hesitant to post pictures of their work, or projects they are working on. As for me I could care less, I know what I can do, where I am going and how I am going to get there, irregardless of what some others may think. This is not true of some who may not have a great deal of experience and are easily discouraged. If it is necessary to disclose to the poster that what they have is a stick in a pot and understanding that lying to them is as bad as criticizing. This must be done in such a way that they do not feel dumped on by more experienced members. Most of us are not fortunate enough to have professional and world class bonsai growers to hold our hands through the critical early years it is then necessary, for the most part, to be self taught. This means chasing a lot of shadows and following a lot of misconceptions.

 

[Attila Soos]

Hi Rick,

I have a few hundred trees like this one, I consider them VERY long-term projects. You've mentioned 5-10 years. I call these 10+ projects. The way I train them, they alternate between being in a training pot for a couple of years, and then growing in the ground for a while (for specific reasons, such as faster growth in certain areas, developing larger nebari, correct reverse taper, etc), and then they go back in a training pot again, for further refinement. Since they are long-term, I grow a large number of them, the rationale being that if I spend such a long time growing these, I might as well have a large selection to choose from, when they are ready for some serious styling. But I enjoy the process of creating bonsai material just as much as creating bonsai, so to me it is fun.

Here are my thoughts on this. Remember that this is my personal opinion (based on my personal experience for the last 17 years of doing bonsai), so you don't have to listen to it, or take it seriously, unless you see something helpful. So, feel free to disregard it at your convenience. Also, a lot of it you may already know, but I will still say it, for the sake of a coherent line of thought. Don't take it as lecturing, or being condescending.

Regarding your tree, I don't see it as bonsai material yet. So, there is not much to style at this point. Therefore, I don't see too much value in styling advice or virtuals, since there are too many variables that will change by the time the tree becomes ready for serious styling.

In my view, here are the stages of a tree becoming a bonsai:

- Seedling
- Nursery tree
- Bonsai material
- Bonsai

Yours falls in the - Nursery tree - category. In order to become - Bonsai material - , it needs to develop some attributes that a bonsai needs: nebari/surface roots, good trunk, some taper, and a good number of primary branches with some movement and foliage close to the trunk. Your tree has not developed these characteristics yet. For a long time after I started doing bonsai (may be the first 10 years), the mistake I was making is to try to create a bonsai right from the start, shortly after buying such a tree from nursery. I think this is a big mistake, and it took me many years until I figured this out. I see many doing the same mistake, and this is a normal part of learning.

At present, your tree has a decent potential trunk line, and that's about it. Everything else you will create from scratch.

I am not following your thoughts here? What time line are you talking about? At present all unnecessary branching has been removed (for now). Indeed there is a good portion of branching remaining on the right hand side (other trunkline) that will be removed when a final styling decision is made.

When I say "cut short the branches" I don't mean to remove them, or kill them for later removal. I mean to prune them as much as possible, to push back the foliage toward the trunk. This is essential for creating bonsai branches, and, with conifers, the process needs to be done simultaneously with creating the trunk line (unlike with deciduous trees, where you build the trunk first). It also slows them down from thickening too fast, relative to the trunk. You should start doing this the first year, right after you acquired the tree. Since your growing season is almost over, it may be too late now, you would have to wait until early spring.

This is where I am loosing you Attila...

"Wiring away" the branches can be done when some branches are growing too much upward, and potentially compete with your trunk line. It means, wiring them downward, or pulling them down, away from the trunk. It is an early training of branches, so that they start looking like bonsai branches. Since you don't know what the final design is going to be, this is just a preliminary wiring. At this point, all you now is that the branches will have to grow horizontally, or downward.
It also re-distributes energy towards the main trunk line.

Again, please remember that bonsai is a personal endeavour, each of us have our personal approach to it. There is no "standard" way of looking at it. This is how I see it.