Pithecellobium dulce styling suggestion.

Johnblackwood

Seedling
Messages
7
Reaction score
4
Location
Malaysia
USDA Zone
13
Hi friends!

I have Pithecellobium dulce that I want to train into bonsai. I know it still early but I learnt that planning starts from the possible earliest time of training a bonsai.

So I think this tree close to my final size. The trunk base diameter is around 1.5 inches. I just want to have a medium sized bonsai.

Until I change my mind in future, I decided the picture with the trunk leading to right will be the tree front side.

For the time being I think that big branch making me feel uneasy. I was thinking to remove it but afraid of wasting the branch as it took years to reach this size. How about your opinion? I also appreciate suggestion for other structure, form, advice etc. Thanks!

IMG_20181127_233602-min.jpgIMG_20181127_233620-min.jpgIMG_20181127_233639-min.jpgIMG_20181127_233651-min.jpg
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,339
Reaction score
23,280
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Nice species to work with. It is a tropical tree, native to the Philippines. Your profile does not say where you live. Only do major chop work on the tree when it is in active growth. Right now it looks more or less dormant. I would wait until spring or until it ''wakes up''.

Most broadleaf trees are grown one segment at a time to become bonsai. One guideline if you are not certain what to do is to roughly divide your tree into 3 equal parts, first third is the single trunk. Second third is the zone where the trunks divide & primary branches begin. Final third of the distance from the base of the trunk is where the branches branch and have the leaves. THis is a rough guide, it is not an absolute, but it is a good plan to try to follow.

When building a tree, you want the trunk to taper, as you go higher in the tree, the trunk is more narrow progressively as you go up. Chop, and then allowing the next segment to grow is how it is done. I marked a photo where I think it should be chopped.

Most of your tree and all the current branches will be replaced as the tree develops. This is actually normal. So chop at the red line is what I would do, and change so that your 3rd image would be the new front.

Expand the photos to 100% in order to read notes I typed directly on the images.

Bnut-rev3_IMG_20181127_233602-min.jpg

BNut2-IMG_20181127_233639-min.jpg
 
Last edited:

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,339
Reaction score
23,280
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Once you do the chop, grow it out, probably a year or two. The more branches you let grow, the more you will have to choose from. Then pick which will be your next extension of your trunk, if you want a single trunk, or if you want 2 sub-trunks pick which those will be. Cut off everything else. Let grow out a season. then pick which branches will be developed. remove the rest.

It is a continuous cycle of allowing the tree to grow out, get bushy, then radically chopping back, then repeating the grow out and chop back process over and over.
 

Johnblackwood

Seedling
Messages
7
Reaction score
4
Location
Malaysia
USDA Zone
13
Hi Leo,

Thanks! That is the greatest complete guide I got!! I just updated my profile. I live in Malaysia, just next to Philippines. Due to tropical climate we got here I am sure I have more time to work on this tree.

This tree is not dormant but I defoliated 90% leaving only very small leaves. I did this after repotting from deep into shallow pot to make nebari, giving the roots chances to utilize energy to adapt into new substrate and pot. The leaves grows more and healthy right now.

I thought earlier about the trunk chop just as you suggested, but I worried about wasting the branch. Now I got some guts to do trunk chop. I will let it recover from repotting then I will chop the trunk at the redline. Clip hard and grow can produce good taper, isn't it?
 

Johnblackwood

Seedling
Messages
7
Reaction score
4
Location
Malaysia
USDA Zone
13
Oh ya! This is variegated species, the leaves are mixed with white and green color, young shoots are pinkish. I can imagine the beauty when ramification is good.
 
Last edited:

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,136
Reaction score
3,210
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
@Leo in N E Illinois did a great job of explaining the chops and process. As time moves on....you will appreciate that drastic chop even more. Just hold your breath and chop. It will all work out.
 

Johnblackwood

Seedling
Messages
7
Reaction score
4
Location
Malaysia
USDA Zone
13
@Leo in N E Illinois did a great job of explaining the chops and process. As time moves on....you will appreciate that drastic chop even more. Just hold your breath and chop. It will all work out.

Yeap. I appreciate the explanation for me to be able to appreciate the result later!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,339
Reaction score
23,280
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Hi Leo,

Thanks! That is the greatest complete guide I got!! I just updated my profile. I live in Malaysia, just next to Philippines. Due to tropical climate we got here I am sure I have more time to work on this tree.

This tree is not dormant but I defoliated 90% leaving only very small leaves. I did this after repotting from deep into shallow pot to make nebari, giving the roots chances to utilize energy to adapt into new substrate and pot. The leaves grows more and healthy right now.

I thought earlier about the trunk chop just as you suggested, but I worried about wasting the branch. Now I got some guts to do trunk chop. I will let it recover from repotting then I will chop the trunk at the redline. Clip hard and grow can produce good taper, isn't it?
Thanks

I visited Malaysia once, back in 1994. Spent 2 days in Malacca, one night at the casino in the Genting Highlands, 2 days in KL, and an all too short 18 hours on Palau Pangkor. I was touring as one of 7 english only speakers in a group of 40 Chinese Nationals, which meant I saw the parts of Malaysia that the Chinese nationals wanted to see, rather than the typical tourist sites that a USA based tour group would have sent me to. From the time I landed in Singapore until I left from KL, I ate local food. No ''American'' food the entire trip. It was really fun. Ba Ku Te in the KL night market is a fond food memory. Palau Pangkor was like stepping into a ''fantasy island'', beautiful beyond words. In the Genting Highlands, while the rest of the group was gambling in the casino, I took a hike into the rain forest above the hotel. Made the mistake of not planning carefully to return to the hotel before nightfall. Within minutes of a beautiful sunset, a dense fog rolled in so thick I could not see my feet. We felt our way back, with our feet, if you felt gravel, you were on the trail, soft leaf litter, you were not on the trail. It was exciting, and turned out well, with no incidents or injuries.

So I am always happy when someone from Malaysia joins BNut.

Given your climate, you should be able to keep this tree growing year round without dormancy. This means development will be very rapid compared to what we see in North America. That is great.

Grow out, then cut back, in repeated cycles can work very well. Let the tree get bushy, with many branches. Keep branches that appear lower than where you would like your first branch. These will be ''sacrifice branches'', to be allowed to grow and thicken the lowest part of the trunk, and be removed ''sacrificed'' or removed, when the trunk is the desired thickness. If the upper parts of the trunk will thicken too rapidly, this is why we let it grow out, then chop back. Otherwise the trunk will be a linear cylinder without any taper. The chops will also give you changes in direction. This will add movement to the trunk.

I forgot what size tree you want to have. For a one meter tall tree you might want a trunk of 20 cm diameter. You could have a trunk as slender as 7 cm, to as large as 40 cm, but a nice size for a meter tall tree would be 10 to 20 cm diameter. The ratio, height to diameter of trunk gives the illusion of age. 20:1 to 10:1 would give the impression of a slender young tree. or a forest tree, or a tall lone mountain tree, literati. Ratio of 5:1 to 4:1 are common for mature look, like a tree growing in an open field. Ratios of 3:1, 2:1 and 1:1 are exaggerated styles, reserved for gnarled, contorted ancient trees, or the exaggerated ''Sumo'' style, which is extreme beyond anything in nature.

With your tree I would go for 10:1 to something near 5:1. and you could get there in just a few years.

Each segment of trunk is increased in diameter by the amount of foliage, leaf surface area, that each segment supports plus the foliage above. But the foliage above also thickens the trunk segments above. So this is why you build the trunk in segments, because otherwise the upper parts of the trunk will be too large in diameter, and detract from the illusion of age.
 
Last edited:

Johnblackwood

Seedling
Messages
7
Reaction score
4
Location
Malaysia
USDA Zone
13
You will now not recognize here was Malaysia you visited. We got rapid city development here. Fortunately the nature you visited, Genting Highlands, Pulau Pangkor etc still retain its beauty.

For this tree, I planned to make shohin so it would be maximum 1 foot. The trunk base which the best I had among the tree I have, I will keep develop it and the lowest branch will be the sacrifice branch.

I just bought young San Jose juniper tree, with height of 3 feet but the trunk base is more or less 1 inch. I will work high ratio for this tree. I admire John Naka creation, the Goshin.
 
Top Bottom