Please help me select some appropriate species from the native nursery

[HorseloverFat]

Hehe! I was just discussing thus EXACT same thing.. but specifically about “Malus” in a different thread.

If they are “named” or special cultivars.. they (usually) all have been propagated from the same plant.. live.

Genetically VARIED... specifically by mass (or not) CULTIVATION.... “Cultivated Varieties”.. “Cultivars” (I believe this is the correct thought process)

Desirable variations are then set on the fast train to clone/graft city!

Then EVERYONE gets Macoun Apples!!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thank you Leo! One more question and perhaps the most important one... since we share the same hardiness zone... what are your favorite North American Trees to practice on?

Junipers - I initially was bored by junipers, lately I am appreciating them for being the "botanical silly putty", you can mimic any tree in nature using a juniper. Shimpaku is introduced from China & Japan, but certainly is the easiest of the junipers to work with. It is plop it on the ground for winter hardy in my area. The other native junipers I'm just starting to learn about. Most are "just set the pot on the ground" winter hardy. I still recommend avoiding Juniperus virginiana as being the "problem child" of the Juniper genus.

Thuja occidentalis - locally native, incredibly winter hardy, I am finding them a good conifer for bonsai. Named cultivars are propagated by cuttings more often than grafting. If you can find a 'Hetzi Dwarf' with a fat trunk, it is quite a good Thuja for bonsai.

Amelanchier - the service berries. I love the flowers in spring, flowering before the leaves expand. This member of the apple family is very winter hardy. I simply set their pots on the ground for the winter. Fruit is ripe by July, small and in proportion with even small bonsai. Fruit is tasty too. "eat your bonsai"

The pine I am excited about is Pinus banksiana, the jack pine. Winter hardy to zone 3, requires no protection over winter. Nice relatively short needles. Waring to others from warmer climates, Jack pine is a NORTHERN pine. If you have mild winters, it may not grow well. Jack pine needs a cold winter rest to thrive. If you live in zone 7 or warmer, do not bother with Jack pine, it will not do well for you. If you can not find Jack pine, the relatively closely related lodgepole pine is nearly as good. Pinus contorta latifolia. Pinus contorta contorta, the shore pine is better for people living in mild climates with mild winters. Zone 7 and warmer you are better off with the shore pine.

Highbush blueberries. Vaccinium corymbosum and related species. The northern highbush blueberries are "set the pot on the ground" for winter hardiness in zone 5b. Flower buds can be damaged at -16 F or -27 C, but vegetative buds are winter hardy to another 7 or more degrees F colder. I keep them as "set on the ground" winter hardy trees. Just sold my interest in a blueberry farm, which is how I learned about them. Blueberries have very specific soil requirements, and they have a bad habit of dropping older branches, but the pretty flowers, and tasty fruit make them my current fascination. Use the search function to find my contributions to threads on blueberries if they interest you. The lowbush blueberries are even more winter hardy than the highbush types.

Bur oak, I have one surviving now 5+ year old seedling. I am interested in how it will develop as bonsai.

I've got other projects, but without walking out into my yard, I can't think of what is today's favorites.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Crataegus - the hawthorne - is a species that is locally native, that I have been wanting try, just have simply not gotten one yet.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Crataegus - the hawthorne - is a species that is locally native, that I have been wanting try, just have simply not gotten one yet.

I love Hawthorne..The specimen and multiple cuttings i have from my Cratageus THRIVE here. They don’t even blink at the cold.

I also have Hawthorne seed in as well.. about 6 months in... I believe they normally take 18, though...

 

[cornfed]

All right... so I went the that nursery today and I think I struck gold.

(Note for @Leo in N E Illinois, you were right about the elms not being grown from seed, but they are cuttings and not grafted.)

Following is some photos of the place (I didn't take as many as I thought I would, I was too busy looking at the trees). As well as some photos of the trees I took home.

She gave me 11 Swamp White Oaks and a Bald Cypress for FREE because she considered them unsellable as landscape trees. She even said she would set up a "cornfed pile" of trees they can't sell for me to look through later this year.

She was interested to learn about bonsai, although I know very little. I will invite her to the next NBS meeting on Zoom, and she said she was willing to propagate specific species for us if we want.

Most all of these were propagated by seed last spring. A few are a little bit older, but none older than two years.

I think my plan is to mostly bare root and rake them to ensure the roots are radial and transfer them to the larger 3-gallon Rootmaker pots ASAP (she also sold me those at cost), to allow trunks to thicken for the rest of this year and beyond perhaps. Now I'm talking about a lot of soil to repot all of these, so I probably will not use my expensive pumice, maybe a grit/pine bark mixture that is cheap and similar to what they are in now (80% pine bark). Akadama, lava rock and pumice are all difficult and/or expensive to find here.

A shot in the propagation greenhouse


What I brought home (for $135).


Hackberry


White Oak


Bald Cypress (Free)


Eastern Redbud


Red Elm


Dwark Chinkapin Oak


Hornbeam


English Oak


Swamp White Oak (I got 11 of them for free).

How did I do!?! Thank you for all your help on this thread, everybody. If any Nebraskan stumbles across this, please say hi!
​

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'd say, you did good. Nice selection of species. All should be able to winter simply set on the ground.

The grit and bark blend will work as a nursery pot bulking up soil. Good haul.

 

[cornfed]

Thanks!

Not everything in that large list I had was out for me to look at, so I deviated a bit.

I'm regretting not grabbing a ginkgo, but I bought a tree for my yard so I have to head back anyways to pick it up next week.

Now the paralysis sets in as I consider what to do with them. Where to cut. I'll probably make specific threads for some of the trees to use as a diary.

 

[Dr3z]

The pine I am excited about is Pinus banksiana, the jack pine.

Bur oak, I have one surviving now 5+ year old seedling. I am interested in how it will develop as bonsai.

Would love to hear more about these two trees:

I had a Jack Pine I my yard one and I have a vision of doing one root over rock to recreate some of my favorite wilderness areas. Anything sagely advice regarding this tree?

Also curious about the burr oak, I have one in my yard that's a good 5-6ft tall but trunk is still pretty skinny and had comically huge leaves. Would cutting it off result I smaller leaves?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Would love to hear more about these two trees:

I had a Jack Pine I my yard one and I have a vision of doing one root over rock to recreate some of my favorite wilderness areas. Anything sagely advice regarding this tree?

Also curious about the burr oak, I have one in my yard that's a good 5-6ft tall but trunk is still pretty skinny and had comically huge leaves. Would cutting it off result I smaller leaves?

Surf thru the "Pine" subforum, there's a few threads on Jack pine. Jack pine is closely related to shore pine & lodgepole pines. It will hybridize with them where their native ranges overlap in the eastern Canadian Rockies. So threads about lodgepole pine are relevant to jack pine as they are somewhat similar.

All styles are possible with Jack pine. But note, they really need sunrise to sunset full sun to do well. Half day of sun is not enough.

Wild jack pines are very difficult to collect, but from seed and nursery grown they are relatively easy to handle. More like a mugo pine. I have been going on slow with mine, sticking to the "one insult per year" rule. So far so good. If one is experienced, you can do more than "one insult" but it really is best to allow time to recover after heavy pruning or repotting. After major root work I let mine recover for 2 full growing seasons, began pruning the third growing season. So go slow with Jack pine.

But oak. When branches have branches, in other words 2 or 3 degrees of ramifications, then the leaf size reduces dramatically. Mine has some dinner plate size leaves and some leaves less than 2 inches in length on the same tree.

If you want, you can reduce your yard tree to maybe 10 to 20 cm. Do it in late May. It should explode with branches. Then dig it up the following year to prune the roots. I'm convinced bur oak can become good bonsai. But they need to develop branching before leaf size comes down. I think leaves can be as small as white oak bonsai with time. Bur oak has the roughest, most deeply fissured bark of the northern cold tolerant oaks. Only the mediterranean cork oak has more fissured bark, and the cork oak can't tolerate cold to our growing zones.

 

[Dr3z]

Surf thru the "Pine" subforum, there's a few threads on Jack pine. Jack pine is closely related to shore pine & lodgepole pines. It will hybridize with them where their native ranges overlap in the eastern Canadian Rockies. So threads about lodgepole pine are relevant to jack pine as they are somewhat similar.

All styles are possible with Jack pine. But note, they really need sunrise to sunset full sun to do well. Half day of sun is not enough.

Wild jack pines are very difficult to collect, but from seed and nursery grown they are relatively easy to handle. More like a mugo pine. I have been going on slow with mine, sticking to the "one insult per year" rule. So far so good. If one is experienced, you can do more than "one insult" but it really is best to allow time to recover after heavy pruning or repotting. After major root work I let mine recover for 2 full growing seasons, began pruning the third growing season. So go slow with Jack pine.

But oak. When branches have branches, in other words 2 or 3 degrees of ramifications, then the leaf size reduces dramatically. Mine has some dinner plate size leaves and some leaves less than 2 inches in length on the same tree.

If you want, you can reduce your yard tree to maybe 10 to 20 cm. Do it in late May. It should explode with branches. Then dig it up the following year to prune the roots. I'm convinced bur oak can become good bonsai. But they need to develop branching before leaf size comes down. I think leaves can be as small as white oak bonsai with time. Bur oak has the roughest, most deeply fissured bark of the northern cold tolerant oaks. Only the mediterranean cork oak has more fissured bark, and the cork oak can't tolerate cold to our growing zones.

Super helpful; I appreciate the time! Gives me a good plan for both, esp as my Jack pine vision has aggressive root work and so I can take that into consideration.

 

[Dr3z]

Surf thru the "Pine" subforum, there's a few threads on Jack pine. Jack pine is closely related to shore pine & lodgepole pines. It will hybridize with them where their native ranges overlap in the eastern Canadian Rockies. So threads about lodgepole pine are relevant to jack pine as they are somewhat similar.

All styles are possible with Jack pine. But note, they really need sunrise to sunset full sun to do well. Half day of sun is not enough.

Wild jack pines are very difficult to collect, but from seed and nursery grown they are relatively easy to handle. More like a mugo pine. I have been going on slow with mine, sticking to the "one insult per year" rule. So far so good. If one is experienced, you can do more than "one insult" but it really is best to allow time to recover after heavy pruning or repotting. After major root work I let mine recover for 2 full growing seasons, began pruning the third growing season. So go slow with Jack pine.

But oak. When branches have branches, in other words 2 or 3 degrees of ramifications, then the leaf size reduces dramatically. Mine has some dinner plate size leaves and some leaves less than 2 inches in length on the same tree.

If you want, you can reduce your yard tree to maybe 10 to 20 cm. Do it in late May. It should explode with branches. Then dig it up the following year to prune the roots. I'm convinced bur oak can become good bonsai. But they need to develop branching before leaf size comes down. I think leaves can be as small as white oak bonsai with time. Bur oak has the roughest, most deeply fissured bark of the northern cold tolerant oaks. Only the mediterranean cork oak has more fissured bark, and the cork oak can't tolerate cold to our growing zones.

I ended up collecting the burr oak in the yard. As you can see animals wreaked havoc on it last season chewing off the bark (squirrels, porcupine or rabbit is my guess, surprisingly but thankfully high up). They may as well have hard chopped this 6-7' tree for me. I'll have to post later on progress.

 

[NamesakE]

I like the updated list. They all can work.

If you are thinking of buying a grafted American elm hybrid for it's disease resistance, and make cuttings from it, elms root easily from cuttings and grow quick. Disease resistant American elms are a worthwhile project. American elms have large leaves, but the leaf size can reduce VERY dramatically, with just a degree or two of branching. American elms are great for medium size and larger bonsai. Plan on 12 to 40 inch height.

For other species, some root easily, some are difficult. Some grow fast, some grow slow. So the answer about buying propagation stock is "it depends".

Propagation is something many of us enjoy doing, but it is not really part of bonsai. Similar with raising trees from seed. If material is common in the hobby, there's no real "need" to put effort into propagation. Focus your energy on learning bonsai and bonsai techniques. I do sprout seed every year, but that is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai, the first 5 years of a seedlings life entails very little bonsai technique being used.

Nursery stock will take a few years to get to the "pre-bonsai" phase. Don't get discouraged. Read up on developing trunks and root systems. The flair or buttress, where the trunk widens out is called the nebari, and it includes the surface roots. Ideally the surface roots should be arranged like the spokes of a wheel. While in training, the surface roots need to be buried. Don't expose them too soon. You trim roots, and arrange roots every time you repot, but then bury the nebari, the surface roots at least 0.5 cm or a quarter inch with media. You do not expose the nebari until the tree is near exhibition ready.

Hope that helps.

"While in training, the surface roots need to be buried. Don't expose them too soon. You trim roots, and arrange roots every time you repot, but then bury the nebari, the surface roots at least 0.5 cm or a quarter inch with media. You do not expose the nebari until the tree is near exhibition ready."
That was insanely helpful! I just got a off-season Black hills spruce as my first pine to practice with.

 

[NamesakE]

I like the updated list. They all can work.

If you are thinking of buying a grafted American elm hybrid for it's disease resistance, and make cuttings from it, elms root easily from cuttings and grow quick. Disease resistant American elms are a worthwhile project. American elms have large leaves, but the leaf size can reduce VERY dramatically, with just a degree or two of branching. American elms are great for medium size and larger bonsai. Plan on 12 to 40 inch height.

For other species, some root easily, some are difficult. Some grow fast, some grow slow. So the answer about buying propagation stock is "it depends".

Propagation is something many of us enjoy doing, but it is not really part of bonsai. Similar with raising trees from seed. If material is common in the hobby, there's no real "need" to put effort into propagation. Focus your energy on learning bonsai and bonsai techniques. I do sprout seed every year, but that is the "nurseryman's phase" of bonsai, the first 5 years of a seedlings life entails very little bonsai technique being used.

Nursery stock will take a few years to get to the "pre-bonsai" phase. Don't get discouraged. Read up on developing trunks and root systems. The flair or buttress, where the trunk widens out is called the nebari, and it includes the surface roots. Ideally the surface roots should be arranged like the spokes of a wheel. While in training, the surface roots need to be buried. Don't expose them too soon. You trim roots, and arrange roots every time you repot, but then bury the nebari, the surface roots at least 0.5 cm or a quarter inch with media. You do not expose the nebari until the tree is near exhibition ready.

Hope that helps.

By the way I didn't get a chance to check in the nebari or base on the trunk because of burlap and it being somewhat buried. Do you know if they commonly graph those?

 

[19Mateo83]

Carpinus carolina, sometimes called Ironwood, is a good species for bonsai. I don't have experience with any of the others. Common names are not reliable though, Google shows other species are also referred as Ironwood, so I would confirm that it is c. Carolina.

Yep…. Carpinus carolina…. good ol american hornbeam

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

By the way I didn't get a chance to check in the nebari or base on the trunk because of burlap and it being somewhat buried. Do you know if they commonly graph those?

Nurseries propagating for landscape use almost always propagate by grafting rather than by producing by cuttings. No way to know for certain, as only the purchasing agent for the nursery, or the head propagator will know, the average employee will be clueless. Assume most nurseries the stock is grafted.

Bonsai orientated nurseries sell material propagated by cuttings. Go to nurseries like Evergreen Gardenworks. Where the owner, Brent Walston propagates by cuttings only.

Evergreen Gardenworks

 

[NamesakE]

Nurseries propagating for landscape use almost always propagate by grafting rather than by producing by cuttings. No way to know for certain, as only the purchasing agent for the nursery, or the head propagator will know, the average employee will be clueless. Assume most nurseries the stock is grafted.

Bonsai orientated nurseries sell material propagated by cuttings. Go to nurseries like Evergreen Gardenworks. Where the owner, Brent Walston propagates by cuttings only.

Evergreen Gardenworks

Ah bummer! Guess I'll find out on thy spring. I was hoping because it was a spruce maybe they didn't do that. Don't know why. Thanks for the help!

 

[queenofsheba52]

Hey @cornfed , what a great thread about your nursery adventure. When spring comes your way, let us know how your trees are doing.

 

[cornfed]

Thanks @queenofsheba52!

Some of these trees have their own threads now. I'll update them when we see who wakes up this spring.

I went to the same nursery just today. Got a twin trunk Bald Cypress, a Triumph Elm and an English Oak for $100.

I'm going to chop that trunk on the elm lower.

 

[queenofsheba52]

Very nice!