Please help Scots pine

Greenfields

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Hi please help me with my Scots pine, for the last 2 months I’ve seen the needles becoming more brown yet some stayed really green and healthy so just thought it was the old pines shedding but now it has gone really pale brown and easily brush off
Any help would be great to get this amazing tree back to looking how it was! It’s around 50 years old so should still be around for many years to come! Thankyou
 

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Bnana

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Where do you live?
Where is the tree positioned?
When was it last repotted?
The soil looks like it's two parts, the inner part full of moss and new inorganic soil around it. Was it slip potted in a different skill type?

Especially the top looks pretty bad. I can't see whether the buds are still alive. If that's the case there is still hope.
 

Greenfields

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Where do you live?
Where is the tree positioned?
When was it last repotted?
The soil looks like it's two parts, the inner part full of moss and new inorganic soil around it. Was it slip potted in a different skill type?

Especially the top looks pretty bad. I can't see whether the buds are still alive. If that's the case there is still hope.
I live in the midlands in the uk and the tree is outside in sun in the morning and afternoon and more shady towards late afternoon so good amount of sun
It was put in the pot around 6-8 months ago as it was on a slate plate in the moss root ball all by the same expert
I will take photos closer to show if there’s buds

Thankyou
 

Greenfields

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Closer photos of the buds and also in the moss there seems to be perfect holes in the soil so would that be a insect? Will attach photos of the holes
 

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Bnana

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Was the old soil removed when repotting? It kind of looks like the rootball was left intact and places with the old soil in the new soil. Otherwise you won't have that much moss yet. If that is organic or more claylike that can cause a wet anaerobic part around the roots.
It is very likely that the repotting is the cause of your trouble.
But there are people that know a lot more about Pinus here.
 

Greenfields

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Was the old soil removed when repotting? It kind of looks like the rootball was left intact and places with the old soil in the new soil. Otherwise you won't have that much moss yet. If that is organic or more claylike that can cause a wet anaerobic part around the roots.
It is very likely that the repotting is the cause of your trouble.
But there are people that know a lot more about Pinus here.
Sorry I am unable to answer that. I believe that the pine was just placed into the new pot and the new soil added to fill the pot. I will see if I have a photo of the bonsai before the. We pot so you can see what I mean.
 

Bnana

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That does look like very organic soil. If it would be similar to the soil is in now it would roll away.
This means you have a rootball with one type of soil surrounded by a different type of soil. That's a recipe for disaster. You don't know what's happening in the rootball. It can become too wet. Or if it dries out can become hydrophobic, than you water the soil around it but the rootball stays dry.

I would repot it properly. Remove the old soil and repot in the inorganic soil. You shouldn't bare root it completely but get most of the old stuff out.

As I said I don't know most about Pinus specifically, someone like @Wires_Guy_wires would be able to help you better.
 

Greenfields

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That does look like very organic soil. If it would be similar to the soil is in now it would roll away.
This means you have a rootball with one type of soil surrounded by a different type of soil. That's a recipe for disaster. You don't know what's happening in the rootball. It can become too wet. Or if it dries out can become hydrophobic, than you water the soil around it but the rootball stays dry.

I would repot it properly. Remove the old soil and repot in the inorganic soil. You shouldn't bare root it completely but get most of the old stuff out.

As I said I don't know most about Pinus specifically, someone like @Wires_Guy_wires would be able to help you better.
Thankyou very much for your opinion I will try and get it repotted properly as what you have said does make sense with the two different soil types and it being in a self contained mass before going into the pot

Thankyou
 

Adair M

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Thankyou very much for your opinion I will try and get it repotted properly as what you have said does make sense with the two different soil types and it being in a self contained mass before going into the pot

Thankyou

Don’t take it to the “expert” you used before!
 

Bnana

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Don’t take it to the “expert” you used before!
Adair, you know a lot about Pinus. What would you do?
Would repotting be too stressful now? It's the right time but still, it's a weak tree.

Why would you get it repotted? It's not hard to do yourself. It's easy to find how to do it online.
 

Adair M

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Adair, you know a lot about Pinus. What would you do?
Would repotting be too stressful now? It's the right time but still, it's a weak tree.

Why would you get it repotted? It's not hard to do yourself. It's easy to find how to do it online.
This is a very sick, weak, tree. If it’s not dead already.

From the text of the OP, it would appear that he purchased this tree, but he appears to be new to bonsai.

Looking at the picture when it was still on the slab, it appears to have some needlecast or something. I see some yellowing needles.

I suspect that the OP was advised to have it repotted at the time of purchase, which would have been back in September or October? Not the optimal time to repot.

And it appears that it was just moved off the slab into a pot. Was any real root work done? There’s no way to tell. The soil of the original root ball goes appear to be very heavy in organics, while the new soil is very open. That’s a recipe for disaster!

What “should” have been done would have been to do a “half bare root repot” to transition the roots into the new soil. It doesn’t look like it was.

So, what happens is the new soil is SO fast draining when compared to the old soil is water drains out before the old soil (where the roots are) can absorb any water. The roots, meanwhile, continue to suck all the water out of the old soil. The old rootball gets dryer and dryer. Even though it might get watered!

Have you ever seen a kitchen sponge get do dry that when you pour water on it that the water just beads up? That might of been what happened.

Moss on the surface can also repel water.
So water hitting the moss runs off to the edges where it runs thru the new soil and out the bottom.

On the other hand, the tree might have had a festering case of needlecast, and THAT’s what has caused the decline. I really can’t tell from just looking at the pictures.

Anything I say is just a guess.

I know the UK has wet winters. All that stuff I wrote about having a dry center rootball may be totally wrong! It may have been festering root rot! From being too wet! Again, a Half Bare Root repot might have saved the tree. It’s virtually impossible to overwater a tree in good inorganic bonsai soil.

So... my advice IS to take it to someone else to assess which of the above scenarios might have caused this tree to decline so badly, and then figure out if there is a path to recovery. I fear it may be too late.
 

Paradox

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I have to agree with Adair. This tree is very very very weak and probably almost dead.

If it were mine I would try to do a slip pot into a bigger pot (read wider and deeper) with proper soil with just a minor removal of current soil around the edge and bottom of the root ball, like maybe half an inch or so to expose some of the hopefully growing tips. You need to be really careful because it will be very easy to do too much and send this tree over the edge, if as has been stated, its not already too late.
 

rollwithak

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This is a very sick, weak, tree. If it’s not dead already.

From the text of the OP, it would appear that he purchased this tree, but he appears to be new to bonsai.

Looking at the picture when it was still on the slab, it appears to have some needlecast or something. I see some yellowing needles.

I suspect that the OP was advised to have it repotted at the time of purchase, which would have been back in September or October? Not the optimal time to repot.

And it appears that it was just moved off the slab into a pot. Was any real root work done? There’s no way to tell. The soil of the original root ball goes appear to be very heavy in organics, while the new soil is very open. That’s a recipe for disaster!

What “should” have been done would have been to do a “half bare root repot” to transition the roots into the new soil. It doesn’t look like it was.

So, what happens is the new soil is SO fast draining when compared to the old soil is water drains out before the old soil (where the roots are) can absorb any water. The roots, meanwhile, continue to suck all the water out of the old soil. The old rootball gets dryer and dryer. Even though it might get watered!

Have you ever seen a kitchen sponge get do dry that when you pour water on it that the water just beads up? That might of been what happened.

Moss on the surface can also repel water.
So water hitting the moss runs off to the edges where it runs thru the new soil and out the bottom.

On the other hand, the tree might have had a festering case of needlecast, and THAT’s what has caused the decline. I really can’t tell from just looking at the pictures.

Anything I say is just a guess.

I know the UK has wet winters. All that stuff I wrote about having a dry center rootball may be totally wrong! It may have been festering root rot! From being too wet! Again, a Half Bare Root repot might have saved the tree. It’s virtually impossible to overwater a tree in good inorganic bonsai soil.

So... my advice IS to take it to someone else to assess which of the above scenarios might have caused this tree to decline so badly, and then figure out if there is a path to recovery. I fear it may be too late.

How far are you from Herons Bonsai?!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Judging from the singular buds, this tree was at a weakened state in autumn to begin with.
Scots pine can be very vigorous and very good at bouncing back, if they're at a superb health. This one wasn't. The repot might have been the final blow, but it might very well be set up to fail prior to that.

I think the repotting didn't make a lot of difference on the lifespan of this tree. It was destined to collapse, now it has done so.
Maybe those couple branches with green on them will make it, but it'll take a year or five to restore it to something viable. Given that the conditions are perfect now. If not, it might succumb later this year.
I don't see any needle cast, but I do see yellow needles in the newer foliage in the 'before repot' picture, which hints towards a lack of water at some point in development. Could also be too wet for that matter. But the issues were there prior to whatever you did to it. They're visible in that picture.

I wouldn't do anything to it right now, other than watering at the right times and cross your fingers for it to bounce back a little or at least not drop the remaining branches. A bit drier is better than on the wet side, due to that organic stuff near the base.
If it bounces back, I'd repot it in fall as a half bare root repot. And only the sides that have green on them.
 

Mike Corazzi

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MAYBE bad news. I tried everything. My climate was wrong for Scots and nothing would save it.

 
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