Please ID these Acers

Woocash

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Hi picked up these two in a bit of a deal at a local nursery today. They’ve been sat for a couple of years. The labels have either deteriorated or faded beyond legibility so I have no idea what they are. Please, can anyone help? I know I may have to wait til spring for a better chance of ID but thought I’d ask now because I’m impatient :) D8861E58-4409-4B55-A8FF-4D43502A8FFE.jpeg
CEEC4372-3114-416F-BD78-D06A14C8F026.jpeg
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coh

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the first one with the lobster reddish bark could be sango kaku.
Doesn't look red enough, though one can never be sure given differences in cameras, monitors, etc. I have a sango kaku and the branches are much redder than either of these.

Climate/weather conditions could affect that as well, I suppose.
 

Woocash

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Yes, I’m not sure about Sango Kaku either for that reason, but only because I thought that it had redder stems. I’m certainly no expert, however. Next to it were several Acer X Conspicuum ‘Mozart’ which had nearly identical bark but i’m sure it’s not that either because of the leaf shape and bud shape, but maybe another snake bark maple?
 

Woocash

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I don’t think the first one is even palmatum.
Me neither really, but those shed leaves in the pot are from the tree as there are a couple of smaller versions still on it. I just cant find a similar maple cultivar so far.
 

Woocash

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True. I did wonder if it was some form of coral bark maple too. Those leaves are still foxing me though.
 

Woocash

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The leaves in the pot of the first tree look like sweet gum.
Yea, that thought had crossed my mind. Any idea what species and do you know if they have orange bark? No other liquidambar at the nursery though, but who knows, they may have sold them previously and only had one left.
 

Borko

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The young branches (Sango kaku ) are red and the old branches are not .
In winter, when there is plenty of moisture, the branches turn bright red.

This picture is January 2019 . ..

At the moment the branches are not red like this.




269697
 

Woocash

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I'm pretty sure that liquidambers have alternate buds. These trees have opposite buds so not liquidamber.
Stupidly, I didn’t even think to check. Cheers for that.
 

Woocash

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Well, I’m certainly not against a Sango Kaku. If it turns out to be one then great, but we shall have to see. Like I said, i’m just being impatient. It’ll be a nice surprise come spring time anyway.
 

bonsai45

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@Woocash a lot of people here are guessing sango kaku for your first tree based entirely on the red tones in the trunk. but MANY maples varieties have red trunks. it is impossible to know at the moment, and reckless to guess

similarly, the purplish-red tones of the second tree, along with the 5-petal leaf with the longer central lobe, could be deshojo, or it could be 1 of at least 50 other cultivars...

if the nursery you bought it from knows their maples, they should know exactly where this came from and when. Their purchase-list from that year should allow you to narrow down the possibilities if not identify the exact cultivar
 

rockm

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This is a futile thread. We can't really provide any useful information. It's impossible to tell exactly what this is. Best source of info would be from the place you got them. There are hundreds of varieties of Japanese Maple, many share extremely similar leaf shape and color.

In any case, all this really doesn't make much difference. All JMs will get similar care and procedures for bonsai are mostly the same for all. What does make a difference is the first one is grafted. It's a low graft that's pretty well done, but there's bark mismatch, which is common. Not a deal killer, but it will bear watching for suitability for bonsai. Sometimes the mismatch gets worse, sometimes it blends.

The second tree is two trees and they could also be grafted. Their nebari looks, well, "challenging" and its something you're going to have to get a handle on next spring. The roots look like they're going to be "stilt" roots once the soil is moved away, that is, individual roots that take a direct deep dive into the soil with no surface spread to speak of. That will mean you've got to make that happen over the next few years--through hard pruning of the roots and flattening techniques, such as fastening the root mass to a board, etc.
 

Woocash

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This is a futile thread. We can't really provide any useful information. It's impossible to tell exactly what this is. Best source of info would be from the place you got them. There are hundreds of varieties of Japanese Maple, many share extremely similar leaf shape and color.

In any case, all this really doesn't make much difference. All JMs will get similar care and procedures for bonsai are mostly the same for all. What does make a difference is the first one is grafted. It's a low graft that's pretty well done, but there's bark mismatch, which is common. Not a deal killer, but it will bear watching for suitability for bonsai. Sometimes the mismatch gets worse, sometimes it blends.

The second tree is two trees and they could also be grafted. Their nebari looks, well, "challenging" and its something you're going to have to get a handle on next spring. The roots look like they're going to be "stilt" roots once the soil is moved away, that is, individual roots that take a direct deep dive into the soil with no surface spread to speak of. That will mean you've got to make that happen over the next few years--through hard pruning of the roots and flattening techniques, such as fastening the root mass to a board, etc.
Very true, I was just hoping to narrow them down for my own information really. I suspect that Spring will shed some light, but how much I don’t know.

Thanks for the appraisal though. It’s extremely rare to find a decent sized maple that hasn’t been grafted over here TBH so i’m not surprised really. I mainly bought them because they were cheap and because I liked the bark and nebari of the first one and the leaf size, delicacy and general form of the second.

I’m not overly fussed as to how the grafts blend in the end, because all said and done, they’ll just be nice trees to look at anyway and provide extra colour over autumn and winter - especially seeing as they are my first Acers of any decent size.

The twin tree though, I did initially think that I’ve got two trees for the price of one, but on closer inspection they have actually fused ever so slightly. I know I could separate them, but I quite like them anyway. I don’t necessarily expect to form a “standard” bonsai with them/it in the end either, but those stilted roots I had noticed do look to be pretty vertical so I’ll see what I can do. It would be nice to grow two trees in symbiosis, like they seem to do in the wild sometimes. I’m just really looking forward to getting into them to see what I’ve actually got.
 

bonsai45

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It’s extremely rare to find a decent sized maple that hasn’t been grafted over here
no it's not

have you been to Heron's? Have you reached out to @BobbyLane ?

Herons' is barely 2 hours away from you. last time i checked they had over 40 maple cultivars intended for the landscape (as yours are) available in all sizes, as well as maples grown for bonsai!

I get that you bought these "because they were cheap and because I liked the bark" - that's fine! But if you want quality maples for bonsai (or landscape) there is no shortage in the UK
 
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