Please ID these Acers

[Woocash]

no it's not

have you been to Heron's? Have you reached out to @BobbyLane ?

Herons' is barely 2 hours away from you. last time i checked they had over 40 maple cultivars intended for the landscape (as yours are) available in all sizes, as well as maples grown for bonsai!

I get that you bought these "because they were cheap and because I liked the bark" - that's fine! But if you want quality maples for bonsai (or landscape) there is no shortage in the UK

Well, yes at specialist bonsai places I would hope to find them, but relatively speaking, at your average nursery or garden centre they are all mass produced and grafted, but I take your point. I have looked at and passed over on many because they are too expensive or have no character. Eventually i’ll get to Heron’s or suchlike and probably acquire something from Bobby, but at the moment I don’t think I can justify the risk of outlay. These cost me £65 for both which seemed to be a snip compared to what’s usually available.

 

[Maloghurst]

The scientific name for these is “coursus longinternodus”
I think they are just basic red leaf JM. Although the first one might be bloodgood based on the branching and internode length.
My coral bark has finer branching then either of these.
I have lots of JM grown from seed and some just have red bark.
As stated it really does not matter in the least. All that matters is the characteristics and growth habits of the tree.

 

[parhamr]

I’m going to settle on a 50-50 chance the first tree is either a sweetgum or a Norway Maple

 

[Woocash]

Okey doke folks. I have managed to tie down what I think these two are finally with a little help from this forum and springtime. Ta.

First one is not for bonsai, unfortunately. I believe it is an Acer Cappadocicum ‘Rubrum’. A beautiful species, but with huge leaves. I repotted it just before bud break and worked the roots a bit, but the next repot will be in to a much larger pot to grow it out and get some girth on the thing. I have no landscape in which to plant it, but I’m definitely young/naive/stupid enough to be up for creating a giant bonsai in 20 years when I’m older/wiser/realistic enough to see how silly I was back now.


Second is a Deshojo. Thanks guys. I’m really happy with this tree. I know it’ll not likely be winning any prizes any time soon but since I chopped it and repotted it in march it already has a nice full canopy and a pleasing structure. I have no plans to start from scratch with this one, but work with what I have got. Any tips for reducing the density would be great though thanks.

Unfortunately, it got bitten by icy winds a few nights ago so I have had to remove a fair few desiccated leaves, but it otherwise is still steaming on all the time.

 

[ajm55555]

It could be a Deshojo but also a Chishio. Young leaves in a Deshojo are completely red, they don't have this yellowish color near the main veins. I could be wrong though.
http://www.davidsansjapanesemaples.com/shop/product/chishio_improved_

 

[LanceMac10]

neon red to green, no yellow. Cool tree regardless!!

 

[Woocash]

It could be a Deshojo but also a Chishio. Young leaves in a Deshojo are completely red, they don't have this yellowish color near the main veins. I could be wrong though.
http://www.davidsansjapanesemaples.com/shop/product/chishio_improved_

That sir, is a cat amongst the pigeons. Thanks for that, I’ll keep an eye on it. As @LanceMac10 says, it‘s a cool tree anyway but hopefully the changes over the year will throw some more definitive light on it.

 

[ajm55555]

it‘s a cool tree anyway

Agreed. It's one of those trees with the widest spectrum of colors from Spring to Fall. Deshojo, Shindeshojo, Seigen and Chishio and maybe there are a few more. The last 2 are actually much less common than the first two and that's a plus. If you want a Deshojo, it won't be a difficult prey!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Woocash
This is a "pet peeve" of mine, lost tags, and not keeping proper labeling of ones trees. This is a carry over from raising orchids and showing orchids for awards. A "lost tag" or "no id" orchid simply can not be shown for awards, no matter how beautiful the flower. Can not even be put on display according to most clubs rules. Now with bonsai, this is irrelevant. The only thing that counts with bonsai is the appearance of the tree. But I always have the nagging feeling, like I lost the pedigree papers of a champion AKC dog, when I loose the tag for a tree. Right now I have a grafted white pine that I lost the tag for. It is frustrating.

My suggestion is to pick up blank plastic plant labels, the kind you stick in the pot. Write on them with pencil. Magic markers, ink of any type will fade in sunlight. Ink will go from easily visible to totally invisible very suddenly, usually about 2 years after it was written, and about 4 months after you forgot which cultivar the tree is. If you write in pencil, the grafite will fade, but usually it fades slowly, giving you time to notice it is fading. With the orchids where pedigree is very important, I would make 2 tags per plant. One tag, written in pencil, on a plastic plant label, one tag would get completely buried in the pot. That way it would not fade in the sun, or get brittle. Then if the label that is just stuck in the pot for all to read gets lost, I know when I repot the orchid, or bonsai the buried label is there and I have the information I need to make new labels.

Unfortunately, as I have moved partly away from orchids, I have gotten sloppy about labelling myself.

But like orchids, with Japanese maples, there are so many varieties that once you loose the "pedigree" there is no identifying the cultivar after that. So double label, bury one in the pot. Or, come up with an inventory system. One grower had stamped metal tags with a number. The tag was tied to the tree or buried in the pot. The inventory list by number was kept in the office. Works great if you keep your lists up to date. There are a dozen ways to keep track of pedigree information, but unfortunately, they all require a little attention to detail, and a little extra effort.

 

[Woocash]

@Woocash
This is a "pet peeve" of mine, lost tags, and not keeping proper labeling of ones trees. This is a carry over from raising orchids and showing orchids for awards. A "lost tag" or "no id" orchid simply can not be shown for awards, no matter how beautiful the flower. Can not even be put on display according to most clubs rules. Now with bonsai, this is irrelevant. The only thing that counts with bonsai is the appearance of the tree. But I always have the nagging feeling, like I lost the pedigree papers of a champion AKC dog, when I loose the tag for a tree. Right now I have a grafted white pine that I lost the tag for. It is frustrating.

My suggestion is to pick up blank plastic plant labels, the kind you stick in the pot. Write on them with pencil. Magic markers, ink of any type will fade in sunlight. Ink will go from easily visible to totally invisible very suddenly, usually about 2 years after it was written, and about 4 months after you forgot which cultivar the tree is. If you write in pencil, the grafite will fade, but usually it fades slowly, giving you time to notice it is fading. With the orchids where pedigree is very important, I would make 2 tags per plant. One tag, written in pencil, on a plastic plant label, one tag would get completely buried in the pot. That way it would not fade in the sun, or get brittle. Then if the label that is just stuck in the pot for all to read gets lost, I know when I repot the orchid, or bonsai the buried label is there and I have the information I need to make new labels.

Unfortunately, as I have moved partly away from orchids, I have gotten sloppy about labelling myself.

But like orchids, with Japanese maples, there are so many varieties that once you loose the "pedigree" there is no identifying the cultivar after that. So double label, bury one in the pot. Or, come up with an inventory system. One grower had stamped metal tags with a number. The tag was tied to the tree or buried in the pot. The inventory list by number was kept in the office. Works great if you keep your lists up to date. There are a dozen ways to keep track of pedigree information, but unfortunately, they all require a little attention to detail, and a little extra effort.

Some good tips there, cheers Leo. Unfortunately, I got both of these from a nursery that had lost many of the tags or had faded beyond recognition so I never knew what they were in the first place. I have kept all the tags of previous purchases though, but I do need a system for labelling my plants so i’ll give it some thought.

 

[Woocash]

Agreed. It's one of those trees with the widest spectrum of colors from Spring to Fall. Deshojo, Shindeshojo, Seigen and Chishio and maybe there are a few more. The last 2 are actually much less common than the first two and that's a plus. If you want a Deshojo, it won't be a difficult prey!

True. I think my location isn’t all that conducive to JM (being quite exposed and windy), so I’m loathe to collect too many until I know what’s what with them. I got these two for a bit of a bargain though so it was hard to say no.

 

[ajm55555]

it was hard to say no

Sometimes it's hard to say no even if it's not a bargain ;-)

 

[Woocash]

Sometimes it's hard to say no even if it's not a bargain ;-)

That’s the trouble. Luckily I have an accountant. A live in accountant who is responsible for putting a halt to all “frivolous” spending. She’s quite diligent too...

 

[GGB]

If you don't care about the cultivar, then that's great. But please don't commit the unforgivable sin of guessing at a cultivar and then propagating this tree. If you want to call it a japanese umbrella pine, that's fine, just as long as you never take cuttings or layers.
I suspect a lot of arakawas are done from seed and still called arakawas. And it seems like something is going on with shindeshojo mix ups too. It potentially ruins an ancient bloodline, or at least a respectably old one.
That being said, I like your tree, especially if you got it for a steal. My recommendation is just call it acer palmatum, because we know that much. Maybe visit that nursery again here and there to see if they have only a few cultivars they seem to sell and maybe that will narrow it down a little. I know a lot of nurseries near me sell the same three cultivars every single season. ... busted up red weeping dissectum, poorly grafted bloodgood, busted up green weeping dissectum. Eastern PA is a cruel place for the maple enthusiast, thank god for the internet

 

[Woocash]

If you don't care about the cultivar, then that's great. But please don't commit the unforgivable sin of guessing at a cultivar and then propagating this tree. If you want to call it a japanese umbrella pine, that's fine, just as long as you never take cuttings or layers.
I suspect a lot of arakawas are done from seed and still called arakawas. And it seems like something is going on with shindeshojo mix ups too. It potentially ruins an ancient bloodline, or at least a respectably old one.
That being said, I like your tree, especially if you got it for a steal. My recommendation is just call it acer palmatum, because we know that much. Maybe visit that nursery again here and there to see if they have only a few cultivars they seem to sell and maybe that will narrow it down a little. I know a lot of nurseries near me sell the same three cultivars every single season. ... busted up red weeping dissectum, poorly grafted bloodgood, busted up green weeping dissectum. Eastern PA is a cruel place for the maple enthusiast, thank god for the internet

No worries there mate. I’m not interested in promoting unknown cultivars. To be honest, I only wanted to know in the first place just for my own records and interest. You make a good point though. Is there a particular phrase for an unknown cultivar? As in A. Palmatum ‘?’.

The nursery is a bit of a no go for ID unfortunately. They stock various cultivars and I dont think their records are that good for plants they’ve had a while. I’ll be going back once life returns to normal so I’ll see what I can find out.

 

[GGB]

So far as I can tell if the cultivar can't be verified it's just "green" acer palmatum or "red leaf" acer palmatum. You judge the true leaf color by what it looks like in the summer. ie bloodgood are red all season, where as deshojo turn greens by summer. Don't mean to insult your intelligence there, but I don't know your level of experience. I personally don't see the need to add anything to the binomial of A. palmatum (in this situation) but if you'd rather have it documented that it's definitely a cultivar then sure add the "?". I tried to do some quick research for this answer, internet and books but I'm mildly hungover and I quit pretty quickly. I love palmatum but the nomenclature of it all is pretty dry.

 

[GGB]

P.S. I just turned up the brightness on my monitor and now I'm not entirely certain that your tree is even grafted/a cultivar at all. It's really hard to tell in the two pics you've posted but I don't see a clear graft and the fact that it has two trunks makes it seem even less likely. Plot thickens? I'm starting to think I prefer them from seed myself, hopefully that's not a deal breaker for you haha

 

[Woocash]

So far as I can tell if the cultivar can't be verified it's just "green" acer palmatum or "red leaf" acer palmatum. You judge the true leaf color by what it looks like in the summer. ie bloodgood are red all season, where as deshojo turn greens by summer. Don't mean to insult your intelligence there, but I don't know your level of experience. I personally don't see the need to add anything to the binomial of A. palmatum (in this situation) but if you'd rather have it documented that it's definitely a cultivar then sure add the "?". I tried to do some quick research for this answer, internet and books but I'm mildly hungover and I quit pretty quickly. I love palmatum but the nomenclature of it all is pretty dry.

No that’s fine mate, I just wondered if there was a name or term to signify the fact that it is an unknown cultivar as opposed to a straight up JM.

I thought it weird that it’s not grafted either, but it’s definitely not a straight JM, at least by intention. The fact that there’s two trunk together made me think it was just an accident in the first place. I’m not complaining though, I love it!