Poetry Thread

Messages
184
Reaction score
313
Location
Northfield, MA
USDA Zone
5b
I have been working, in my head, on a poem. My first in a long time, I stoped writing in early high school.

There is a process when being trained that all passage or haggard hawks go through. Certain steps that follow one after another. In some birds one may only last a moment, some never get through but each step always comes from the previous. First they are catatonic, they can't stand. They are paralyzed by fear. You stand them on the glove and they slide off, hanging and vacant. After this they panic. You put them on the glove and the bounce off like a shot then they hang exausted. After these two stages they begin to look around and, to the extent available to them, to think. They see the food on the glove for the first time and they want. But they are terrified. They will hang there head, hungry and afraid, caught between their hunger and their fear.

This moment is so powerful for me. So symbolic of life. You can tell so much about a hawk by how it behaves in that moment. And you can convey so much by how you behave toward them.

I can't get the image in my head into words. Thank you for taking g the time to explain a little of your process. It is always helpful to see that someone else's good results are the fruit of long labor and not just a moment's inspiration.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Group....

I already like it...
The article wrote..
Though I have not read it...
Not inside or spoke....

I ask if I should.
I know that I could...
But I feel I would...

Be wasting my time.

It's already in mind!

So kindly your opinion ....

Hmmmm....

What's on the chin yins?

A Pennsylvania Beard!

Lol! Weird!

Sincerely,

Sorce

 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
I have been working, in my head, on a poem. My first in a long time, I stoped writing in early high school.

There is a process when being trained that all passage or haggard hawks go through. Certain steps that follow one after another. In some birds one may only last a moment, some never get through but each step always comes from the previous. First they are catatonic, they can't stand. They are paralyzed by fear. You stand them on the glove and they slide off, hanging and vacant. After this they panic. You put them on the glove and the bounce off like a shot then they hang exausted. After these two stages they begin to look around and, to the extent available to them, to think. They see the food on the glove for the first time and they want. But they are terrified. They will hang there head, hungry and afraid, caught between their hunger and their fear.

This moment is so powerful for me. So symbolic of life. You can tell so much about a hawk by how it behaves in that moment. And you can convey so much by how you behave toward them.

I can't get the image in my head into words. Thank you for taking g the time to explain a little of your process. It is always helpful to see that someone else's good results are the fruit of long labor and not just a moment's inspiration.

What you write here seems like very fertile ground for a great poem, short story or essay.

If I understand correctly, your poem hopes to convey the process involved in the meeting and the melding of two very different minds, and the bonding together of your minds and lives in a joint activity that you will both love: hunting together. The essence of the initial training revolves around the fact that you hold all the cards: you’re in control of him, and the situation; you know what you’re aiming at, and the joy it will bring you both, whereas the hawk only knows the present fear and the primitive instincts involved, but not your motives, or where this is heading.

The common language you have to share with him, and he with you, is hardly a language at all, yet it’s all you two have. In fact, the jump to your gloved hand to get the food boils down to nothing less than what the old existentialist writers would call a “leap of faith.” And meanwhile you have to carefully control any urges you have to coerce or manipulate that leap into anything else. He must have faith in you, somehow, trust, and if that isn’t there eventually, spontaneously, your dreams of hunting with him have to end.

How to convey such things - what’s in your heart/mind, and what’s in his, and the learning together without common language or a bond yet - this is the challenge the poem presents, especially to those who don’t understand what any of this is about.

However, to make it even more difficult for you, the psychological aspects and issues involved in all this - which form the essence of your journey with this bird - can’t simply be talked about with psychological theory, as I’ve done here, but must be brought to life for the reader through visual, auditory, olfactory and tactile imagery. For instance, as the hawk struggles, feeling the fear of leaping to your gloved fist, yet lured by feelings of hunger that are born of the smell and imagined taste of the food, simultaneously some part of your mind is never far from the dream of hunting together one day, the scenery and the wind, the adrenaline rush and feeling of camaraderie, your current longing for the someday-familiar feeling of his talons digging into the leather of your glove in union, etc - this must be conveyed, not with some psychobabble such as I’ve used here, but with a rugged, earthy language befitting hunters forming a team.

Hope those thoughts help. I hope it gets written - it seems a great subject.

G52
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
This moment is so powerful for me

Because I am a tad confused...(highschool eh!)
And as a writing excersize...(yes this poem should be wrote)
And because I love birds, and poetry...

Can you please explain THE moment once more?

I understand mostly, but it seems as if this were written, well, exactly as it was....
As a forum post explaining and trying to gather insight in the same.

Now that the rough draft is up...

What is THAT MOMENT?

............

Some poetics.

The leather of the glove vs. The hide of a kill.

The fledgling birds fear of the handler / a fledgling handlers fear of the bird.

....
I lost a couple, they'll come back.

Notes....

I think my confusion stems from .....

. In some birds one may only last a moment

Which bird is this story\poem about?

The fast learner? The slow learner?

Can you create more, more interesting, and more explanatory verses by comparing each?

A similar rhyme or pattern/cadence for each...
The slow...
The average....
And the fast learner?

Or is there one learning speed where THIS MOMENT you want to convey is greater with?
If so, stick with that one speed.
And omit mention of differing learning speeds, or birds.

That will take it from post to poem most.

Raptoure?

Sorce
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Because I am a tad confused...(highschool eh!)
And as a writing excersize...(yes this poem should be wrote)
And because I love birds, and poetry...

Can you please explain THE moment once more?

I understand mostly, but it seems as if this were written, well, exactly as it was....
As a forum post explaining and trying to gather insight in the same.

Now that the rough draft is up...

What is THAT MOMENT?

............

Some poetics.

The leather of the glove vs. The hide of a kill.

The fledgling birds fear of the handler / a fledgling handlers fear of the bird.

....
I lost a couple, they'll come back.

Notes....

I think my confusion stems from .....



Which bird is this story\poem about?

The fast learner? The slow learner?

Can you create more, more interesting, and more explanatory verses by comparing each?

A similar rhyme or pattern/cadence for each...
The slow...
The average....
And the fast learner?

Or is there one learning speed where THIS MOMENT you want to convey is greater with?
If so, stick with that one speed.
And omit mention of differing learning speeds, or birds.

That will take it from post to poem most.

Raptoure?

Sorce

Source! I think this video explains it pretty well:

 
Messages
184
Reaction score
313
Location
Northfield, MA
USDA Zone
5b
One of my aphorisms is "not greedy, not afraid" I feel like so much of our, or maby just my, lives are governed by fear and greed. Most of the poor decisions i have made in my life i can trace to fear or greed. I want to be successful, im afraid of failure. I want this design, but im afraid of damageing my tree. If the middle path is straight ahead, to the left is fear, to the right is greed. I want my children to be successful, but I'm afraid of pushing them too hard, fear and greed.

The middle path is as narrow and hard to travel as a razor.

Every time I get a new bird on the glove, there is a moment where they are torn between their hunger and their fear. That moment I find very powerful. It may be that the process of manning a new bird forces me to be very present in the moment and consciencous of my actions But that moment of perfect balance is powerful for me. On the other side of the bird's fear is trust. They are compelled by hunger to put their head down and eat. Where they are vulernable. On the other side of this moment is the beginning of my relationship to my hawk. Their greed takes over, their fear turns to trust.

I want to create a haiku of that moment, because, as grouper52 stated, it is a form that forces you to to distill something huge into the briefest moment. There is no room for imperfection, for verbosity. A good haiku is a razors edge of perfection.
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
I couldn't help but write one .... but I'm hesitant to post it, because then it will not be yours, and it needs to be yours. The struggle to get it right - right for you - will make it yours to treasure. Take a couple of years if you need to! :)

The way I suggest you go at it: Write down the most succinct words - visceral, concrete words - that apply. Write each word separately at first - don't put them together yet. And go for the gusto! You don't have to go overboard, but you are not writing a haiku about asking a casual friend over to play some video games! This is not some namby-pamby moment for either you or the bird. You are proposing, essentially, a life-long marriage to woman you greatly desire, but who doesn't know you or speak your language, and who seems rightly scared to death of you: you've kidnapped her, locked her up and starved her, and then you offer her some food if she'll come to you willingly and be your life-long companion?! Yes, it just might work - if she's the right sort of woman in the right sort of frame of mind, and if you make every move just right in her mind - but there are no guarantees, and you've got a lot of raw emotional/visceral reactions to the proceedings: focus on words that reflect that!

For instance:

Hawk (Not "Bird")
Gloved (not "covered")
Fist (not "hand")
Meat (not "food")
Hunt (not "work" or "be" or "hang out")
Starved (not "hungry")
Scares (not "frightens")
Tempts (not "attracts")
Leaps (not "jumps")
etc, etc, etc. - your heart "pounds" here, it doesn't just "beat"!

You've got 10 of a haiku's necessary 17 syllables already here, leaving just a few connector-word options like verbs that you can throw in to make it flow. Choose the best words of this sort to express the feeling of the scene you want to create, and don't stop until you get it right. Pay attention next time you train a bird as well: sights, sounds, smells, tactile feelings, visceral feelings and where you feel them, etc. And when you write, talk it or read it back out loud until it flows with the right sound. Good luck.

G52
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Potted Consciousness.
Bound.

Circles of thought.
Round.

Lost.



Sorce
 
Messages
184
Reaction score
313
Location
Northfield, MA
USDA Zone
5b
So far:

The First Bite

Transfixed staring caught
Between her hunger and fear
The whole world freezes.


I gave up trying to use that moment to say what I wanted, and just tried to get down, as clearly as I could, what I saw. The reader can bring whatever their life is to it.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Forgive me Jacob....if I didn't absolutely adore poetry and raptors, I may not be here....

May I?

Transfixed staring caught
Between her hunger and fear
The whole world freezes.

I read the first line as one...

Transfixed and staring are essentially the same, Removing one will allow for more descriptive words in a short line.

A far reaching gaze transfixed on what's near...
She is free, yet caught,
Between hunger and fear.

Still is the world to her.
Still....
She must feed...
Spread wings she will...
And display her great speed...

Maybe.

I thought the first bite was the first bit of poem.

But it is the title yes?

Sorce
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
The reader can bring whatever their life is to it.

I like this. Very correct.
Just as I wanted folks to hear "found" without saying it.
A rhyme of the opposite word.

Sorce
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,912
Reaction score
45,593
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
And display her great speed...

Forgot she was akward...
And a short distance right?

So maybe unsure of her speed somehow.

Sorce
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
So far:

The First Bite

Transfixed staring caught
Between her hunger and fear
The whole world freezes.


I gave up trying to use that moment to say what I wanted, and just tried to get down, as clearly as I could, what I saw. The reader can bring whatever their life is to it.

Very nice! Would you mind if I offered - with explanations why - some minor tweaks I think might make it even better? I certainly understand if you'd rather I don't. :)
 
Messages
184
Reaction score
313
Location
Northfield, MA
USDA Zone
5b
Very nice! Would you mind if I offered - with explanations why - some minor tweaks I think might make it even better? I certainly understand if you'd rather I don't. :)
Certainly, I would like feed back. I'm super busy at work, planting season just finished and harvest time is fully upon us so I don't have time or energy to work on it. This is just to say if I don't reply is is not due to offence.
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Certainly, I would like feed back. I'm super busy at work, planting season just finished and harvest time is fully upon us so I don't have time or energy to work on it. This is just to say if I don't reply is is not due to offence.

It's really quite good, and stands on its own as an admirable haiku.

I think it's OK if haiku have a title, but others who are more purists don't. I've done it both ways, and I must say, when in a bind, the few extra explanatory syllables add a huge percentage increase that often explains just the right context. I did this with my "Ryoanji" haiku that I think I posted elsewhere on this thread.

But I'm going to try to see if the whole scene in all it's depth can be captured without the title, although - since all of us here know what the poem's about - that may also be cheating a bit. In other words, my haiku here, for a complete strangers with no frame of reference, may make no sense. (which is exactly why I threw in the work "hawk," as you'll see.)

My initial corrective reactions to your haiku were as follows, and may point you towards improved writing overall in the future because they address common probelems found in all sorts of writing, and because they are easy to correct or avoid once you know to look for them.

Line 1. In something as compact as a haiku especially, extraeous or duplicate words must go. Either "staring" or "transfixed" are good words that convey much the same general meaning, so only one is needed. They are both of the same syllable count, so that doesn't matter here. Emotionally, "transfixed" is more powerful, but ""staring" is actually more accurate from a visual standpoint, and I chose that one to add a bit of visual realism to the scene. Again, either word alone is great, depending on the emphasis.

The word "caught," with it's crisp, definitive sound, is great, and if the meaning is not captured elsewhere or in some other way, it would serve well. On the other hand, "trapped" is more powerful, and perhaps more accurate.

Line 2. Two syllables can be freed up by getting rid of "her" & "and." Indeed, without those two words/syallbles, the meaning is even more starkly conveyed: "... between hunger, fear ..."two more syllables to work with, and you have two more syllables to work with.

While I admit that the visual and verbal constructions which I use in the first two phrases of line two adequately meet the syllabic requirements, and roughly convey the storyline, I also freely admit that they are quite unsightly and awkward. The phrase, "butt ugly" would best describe their poetic attractiveness, but they do capture - in my current opinion - the the matter at hand, however crudely. However, if I was to refine this haiku over vast stretches of time, line two would certainly be the focal point of my efforts. :)

Line 3. "The whole world freezes." This line should be the most powerful. It is the weakest. I wrote a tutorial or such in the "Resources" section of this web site, entitled, "Focal Point Bonsai Design." I think it is important to keep the idea of a focal point in mind in any work of art, whether visual art like bonsai, or a poem such as you have presented here. The focal point here is to capture a split second in time when a wild animal decides to overcome fundamental protective instincts that have evolved over eons, in order to trust, out of necessity (hunger in this case), another creature which her species has always viewed - with evolutionary success - as dangerous. This forced conflict is the focal point, made important to us humans because we want - but don't need, necessarily - the thrilling experience of this collaborative bonding and hunting with another species.

Therefore, I don't think "the whole world freezes" is not at all accurate for the hawk in the same way that it is accurate for you. The stakes are much, much different, but you can't convey any of this to her. She's trapped, and rightfully petrified to go against her instincts. You, as the dominant species in general, and the one literally holding her fate in your hands, are the one with vastly superior intelligence, an intelligence that understands the benefits to the bird in ways she can not imagine. You, but not her, know that both of you will treasure your lives together hunting, and that you both will treasure the bond between you. She knows only hunger and fear in that moment.

For this reason I bring you back into the poem, where you belong. This is not a poem about the hawk. This is a poem about you, and your longings for a life together with the hawk.

The ending of my second line, and my third line, therefore shifts the poem back to the first person perspective, not as a mere observer of the struggling hawk, but as the cause - which I consider ultimately noble - of the hawk's current struggle and suffering.

So here it is: Slings and arrows are as welcome as any sort of kinder - but perhaps less accurate - thoughts/opinions.



New hawk stares - frozen.

Hunger?/Fear! Leap?/Stay! Me too -

Two?/One! Can't we hunt?!​
 

Rambles

Mame
Messages
225
Reaction score
299
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8a
A gift of green twine
He smiles down from the porch rail
black feathers gleaming
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,719
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Another attempt (my first one was not very pleasing to me)

The Test

Hawk! trapped, starved, must now
trust, leap scared to food on glove
- or we'll never hunt​
 
Top Bottom