Pond basket sizing, in ground

[sorce]

Thought?

However folks use baskets, the intention is to generate that highly sustaining feeder root mass that removes worry of "how much is safe to cut?".

While the number of surface roots eminating from a base is a subjective design decision.....

The amount of division and subsequent feeders from those roots, necessary to safely provide for the tree, is mathematically objective.

The subjective design decision of how many visible surface root forks there are, along with the proportional relationship between the trunk size and the final visible lengths of the surface roots, should lead then, to the objective decision of what size basket to use.

From as small as you are beginning with, the feasible path is no different than the standard nursery trade practice, except using each increase in size to establish your next visible root forking.

Small basket, establish roots eminating from trunk....
Medium basket, establish first visible fork.
Large basket, establish second forking.
Etc. Till design complete.

This is the fastest way to establish both a superb surface roots and an abundance of feeders to sustain designable health.
The most reasonable use of baskets as relates to creating good bonsai.

Resorce.

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

Frank, if you don't have pumice available (Central Texas) what would you use? I can't find any pumice or lava in bulk quantities. I have researched a few websites that ship yards, and right now they are not even quoting the freight because of the lack of drivers. I thought about buying NAPA DE and using that, or checking out if there is a baseball field supplier that sells turface in my area. I think the NAPA DE would be way cheaper than buying 100ea 3 gal size pumice bags for my beds.

Right now I am using pine bark to retain moisture around the bags. One other option would be composted mulch, but once again, I don't know why it is so hard to find in my area. I can find pretty colorful mulch, but not the composted one.

I am always wanting to consider both drainage and moisture retention. If you are just using the material around grow bags then the primary concern would be does the material impact drainage. I expect grow bags to retain moisture when surrounded by material that is less porous than the material in the grow bag. As long as denser material can be kept loose then it should function. The Japanese use coarse river sand very effectively for ground growing. However it must be understood that this is not our perception of sand. More like grit or small pebbly rock! What type of grit is available in your area? Industries such as oil and gas use various grades of grit or coarse sand for drilling operations and well construction for examples of routes of inquiry. I know that most of the drilling sands used in Canada are imported from the USA. Coarse sand and gravel are also used in the Aquarium industry and often available in 50 lb bags. It does not break down appreciably so it is basically a one time expense.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

However folks use baskets, the intention is to generate that highly sustaining feeder root mass that removes worry of "how much is safe to cut?".

While the number of surface roots eminating from a base is a subjective design decision.....

The amount of division and subsequent feeders from those roots, necessary to safely provide for the tree, is mathematically objective.

The subjective design decision of how many visible surface root forks there are, along with the proportional relationship between the trunk size and the final visible lengths of the surface roots, should lead then, to the objective decision of what size basket to use.

From as small as you are beginning with, the feasible path is no different than the standard nursery trade practice, except using each increase in size to establish your next visible root forking.

Small basket, establish roots eminating from trunk....
Medium basket, establish first visible fork.
Large basket, establish second forking.
Etc. Till design complete.

This is the fastest way to establish both a superb surface roots and an abundance of feeders to sustain designable health.
The most reasonable use of baskets as relates to creating good bonsai.

Resorce.

Sorce

Thank you Sorce,

Your the first person who actually answered my original question! hahah

So my problem is that I can't find a smaller than 8"dia x 5" deep basket. So I won't be able to keep up potting.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Rootpouch, I order them from Lowes. Cheapest place so far.

I can't find any dealers in Canada. They're look like they're just made out of landscape fabric?

 

[River's Edge]

does the oversized pot really matter?

No it does not, as long as when you repot you arrange the roots carefully and use a proper repotting procedure. For some species it is an advantage when frequent repotting is ill advised. The size of the container does not stop one from repotting sooner if desired. The technique used when repotting determines the result.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

No it does not, as long as when you repot you arrange the roots carefully and use a proper repotting procedure. For some species it is an advantage when frequent repotting is ill advised. The size of the container does not stop one from repotting sooner if desired. The technique used when repotting determines the result.

That's what i was looking to hear. Thanks as always Frank.

 

[sorce]

Thank you Sorce,

Your the first person who actually answered my original question! hahah

So my problem is that I can't find a smaller than 8"dia x 5" deep basket. So I won't be able to keep up potting.

I made a bunch of 4x4 stuff and committed.
It's been about 6 years and I'm not out of fun.

I think the difficult decision is being responsible, or beholden to your growing capabilities, or your material, as it relates to being responsible for bonsai as a whole.

Just as a collector of large Yamadori must build a specific box, a person with easiest (labor+money) access to an 8x5 container should do as you are, grow a bunch of stuff that size to excellence.

This stuff can then be traded with folks of other disciplines, to build your personal collection of things outside the 8x5 footprint.

I reckon if a grower grew 100 plants in 100 8x5 containers, 60 would end up good.
Where of a grower grew 100 plants in 100 different containers, maybe 20 would end up good.
Not exactly, but I think we get to make the choice of feeling limited, or offered an opportunity to specialize.

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

One thing I can add is that depending on the tree, a pond basket will not hold the roots at all. I moved most of my trees from pond baskets to Rootpouch bags. They were sitting in the ground over and covered on the sides by mulch over winter last year. 3 of them broke through the pond basket and had a tap root as thick as the trunk with roots already breaking the holes of the basket. A Yoshino cherry tree, a trident and a bald cypress. I guess dwarf varieties could be ok, or trees with slow root development.

I would agree the for the most vigorous of trees a bag is better but the pond basket is suitable for many many trees.

 

[River's Edge]

One thing I can add is that depending on the tree, a pond basket will not hold the roots at all. I moved most of my trees from pond baskets to Rootpouch bags. They were sitting in the ground over and covered on the sides by mulch over winter last year. 3 of them broke through the pond basket and had a tap root as thick as the trunk with roots already breaking the holes of the basket. A Yoshino cherry tree, a trident and a bald cypress. I guess dwarf varieties could be ok, or trees with slow root development.

How does the root pouch bag change the root formation characteristics of the tree? My only experience with root pouches were with JBP and they caused circling in the roots and thick congestion. Because the roots had more difficulty escaping. This in turn ruined a lot of the previous development work. It was much easier to cut off the escape artists and return the pond basket to the ground for finer feeder roots to develop, rather than try to untangle the congested root bags. So your comments are difficult for me to understand.

 

[The Warm Canuck]

I am always wanting to consider both drainage and moisture retention. If you are just using the material around grow bags then the primary concern would be does the material impact drainage. I expect grow bags to retain moisture when surrounded by material that is less porous than the material in the grow bag. As long as denser material can be kept loose then it should function. The Japanese use coarse river sand very effectively for ground growing. However it must be understood that this is not our perception of sand. More like grit or small pebbly rock! What type of grit is available in your area? Industries such as oil and gas use various grades of grit or coarse sand for drilling operations and well construction for examples of routes of inquiry. I know that most of the drilling sands used in Canada are imported from the USA. Coarse sand and gravel are also used in the Aquarium industry and often available in 50 lb bags. It does not break down appreciably so it is basically a one time expense.

Peter Chan uses Pea gravel at his nursery. He's not burying the pots but I wonder if it could be used for beds with colanders or grow beds. For us who don't have access to decent priced westcoast Pumice or lava rock. Pea gravel is usually readily available everywhere.

 

[River's Edge]

Peter Chan uses Pea gravel at his nursery. He's not burying the pots but I wonder if it could be used for beds with colanders or grow beds. For us who don't have access to decent priced westcoast Pumice or lava rock. Pea gravel is usually readily available everywhere.

No reason why not if you can access proper sizing and add some pine bark or fir bark for extra moisture retention. Must remember it is inorganic and fertilization is required to suit.

 

[Maiden69]

What type of grit is available in your area?

The main one is decomposed granite. I will have to look at the quarries in the area and see what they have. Decomposed granite is used a lot for landscaping, as the city is moving to a "less greener" look to conserve water.

How does the root pouch bag change the root formation characteristics of the tree?

I am moving a few trees hopefully this weekend, I will take some pictures. I guess it depends on the bag, some bags don't entrap the roots, just prevent them from pushing through and eventually they start circling the bag just like a pot. The Rootpouch brand entraps the root tip, pruning it and creating finer ramification. If you look at cmeg1 CM Bonsai thread, I knew about grow bags for a while, but never thought about using them for bonsai till I saw his thread. That link is of one of his JBP seedlings, this is what I expect from my trees as well.

I can't find any dealers in Canada. They're look like they're just made out of landscape fabric?

There is another brand that claims to do the same thing as Rootpouch. Root maker.

Home | ROOTMAKER

RootMaker provides root production tools that equip plants for transplanting success.

rootmaker.com

There is only one distributor for Rootpouch in Canada, Hydrofarm Canada. https://hydrofarm.ca/pots-containers?specs=4309

Root Pouch

We manufacture fabric planting containers, made from recycled water bottles and natural fibers. Designed in partnership with professional growers across the world.

rootpouch.com

 

[Rowbow]

I use square pond baskets, these are the smallest ones and go up in size cheap enough to experiment with.

Pond Square Planting Basket 11 x 11 x 11cm -12 Pack : Amazon.co.uk: Garden & Outdoors

Great prices on your favourite Gardening brands, and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[BrianBay9]

Peter Chan uses Pea gravel at his nursery. He's not burying the pots but I wonder if it could be used for beds with colanders or grow beds. For us who don't have access to decent priced westcoast Pumice or lava rock. Pea gravel is usually readily available everywhere.

In the past I've buried pond baskets and bags in a bank of pea gravel, mostly for newly collected material. It keeps the roots cool and moist, and the pots stable. Roots do extend into it when the trees get active again. I think it worked just fine.

 

[River's Edge]

There is only one distributor for Rootpouch in Canada, Hydrofarm Canada. https://hydrofarm.ca/pots-containers?specs=4309

This is one of my suppliers and they are very good to deal with.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Or don't.

I have several of these. They are a good price and high quality. They last for years.

Much easier harvest and less work in the long run.

Grow beds in my case do not have soil but have a grow mix. My grow mix varies from bed to bed.

It seems to me that a lot of people who comment negatively on certain things have very little or no personal experience with those things. I have tried baskets, bags and bare ground planting for bonsai development and I find there is a place for all of them in my life. I actually first used grow bags over 30 years ago and I have some pond baskets that are over 20 years old and still holding up. I just dug some cherries that were in the ground in soil for the past 3 years. They have decent roots but required the pruning of many large lateral roots that were tangled with the roots of the adjacent plants. The plants in baskets were more contained with finer root ramification. The plants in bags were even more so. Both of these methods allow me to plant more plants in a smaller area than bare ground planting. Its hard to work a spade between plants if planted side by side in the ground without affecting adjacent plants. With baskets I simply slide the spade down the outside of the basket and lift it out.
If in doubt and if you like to experiment, you have nothing to lose by trying alternate methods. I sure am glad I did.

If you don’t mind can you please elaborate. .On the use of bag and or baskets in the ground . I also live in Canada zone 4 . I grow in grow boxes mainly the portability my area winter care easier in the extreme cold . And in the ground no pot . Interested in trying basket and or bags . Was just hoping you could talk to what you prefer for what. How long you leave stuff . Soil mixes . Just trying to shorten the learn curve and avoid . Things you learned did not help from your vast experience . And knowledge . Thank you

 

[Frozentreehugger]

In the past I've buried pond baskets and bags in a bank of pea gravel, mostly for newly collected material. It keeps the roots cool and moist, and the pots stable. Roots do extend into it when the trees get active again. I think it worked just fine.

In the past I've buried pond baskets and bags in a bank of pea gravel, mostly for newly collected material. It keeps the roots cool and moist, and the pots stable. Roots do extend into it when the trees get active again. I think it worked just fine.

In the past I've buried pond baskets and bags in a bank of pea gravel, mostly for newly collected material. It keeps the roots cool and moist, and the pots stable. Roots do extend into it when the trees get active again. I think it worked just fine.

Warm Canuck. I live near Ottawa . So am not that far away . Answer to your non organic grit for bonsai soil is easy . Your most likely standing on it . We do not have access to volcanic rock like pumice . Ontario Rock base is limestone or granite . The limestone is softer think grey construction gravel . Do not use that it’s limestone PH all wrong for plants . I use crushed granite ( not decomposed granite) crushed hard granite . You should have no trouble finding it ask at any aggregate supplier for construction . Or landscaping company . Some one will know where there is a yard full of it . Most often what you will find is crushed red granite as that is what they can sell so that is what they make . It’s sold fir decorative uses . It’s not round river rock it’s crushed odd shaped rough and very hard Rock . Sold but the yard or weight . For use it’s cheap I take my 4x8 trailer shovel it full for less than 200$ get the smallest size sometimes called gravel dust . Washed sieved it’s the bass ingredient of my bonsai soil not saying to any one it’s better than volcanic rock but it’s what we have access to don’t . Worry about it breaking down you we’ll be long dead . Ps if you find someone that makes black message me the normal red is not bad if you get it yourself some piles are darker

 

[The Warm Canuck]

Warm Canuck. I live near Ottawa . So am not that far away . Answer to your non organic grit for bonsai soil is easy . Your most likely standing on it . We do not have access to volcanic rock like pumice . Ontario Rock base is limestone or granite . The limestone is softer think grey construction gravel . Do not use that it’s limestone PH all wrong for plants . I use crushed granite ( not decomposed granite) crushed hard granite . You should have no trouble finding it ask at any aggregate supplier for construction . Or landscaping company . Some one will know where there is a yard full of it . Most often what you will find is crushed red granite as that is what they can sell so that is what they make . It’s sold fir decorative uses . It’s not round river rock it’s crushed odd shaped rough and very hard Rock . Sold but the yard or weight . For use it’s cheap I take my 4x8 trailer shovel it full for less than 200$ get the smallest size sometimes called gravel dust . Washed sieved it’s the bass ingredient of my bonsai soil not saying to any one it’s better than volcanic rock but it’s what we have access to don’t . Worry about it breaking down you we’ll be long dead . Ps if you find someone that makes black message me the normal red is not bad if you get it yourself some piles are darker

It's good to see a fellow Ontario grower here.

Thanks for the advice on the granite. I'll keep that in mind. Did you know Home Hardware carries lava rock? It needs to be sifted, but there's not much waste.

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Get the LAVAGRIP 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid at your local Home Hardware store. Buy online and get Free Shipping to any Home location!

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Also, I just found a local hydropnic store that carries Hydroton, it's a high fired clay pebble, that doesn't break down. I might fill my bed with this.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

It's good to see a fellow Ontario grower here.

Thanks for the advice on the granite. I'll keep that in mind. Did you know Home Hardware carries lava rock? It needs to be sifted, but there's not much waste.

Lavagrip 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid | Home Hardware

Get the LAVAGRIP 16kg Anti-Slip Traction Aid at your local Home Hardware store. Buy online and get Free Shipping to any Home location!

www.homehardware.ca

Also, I just found a local hydropnic store that carries Hydroton, it's a high fired clay pebble, that doesn't break down. I might fill my bed with this.

Be very careful with the bag of lava rock sold as traction aid Be absolutely sure what your buying. . I’ve seen the dead trees to prove it . Soak it in water 24 hours and PH test it . Good chance it’s limestone or at least partly . Why as a store would you bring bags of Rock 1/2 way across a continent . When screened limestone is sold buy the ton and spread on every parking lot in the province . I’ll stick with granite one other point granite is heavy adds a nice bit of stability to a small pot . But hope your younger than me when you are moving grow boxes

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Be very careful with the bag of lava rock sold as traction aid Be absolutely sure what your buying. . I’ve seen the dead trees to prove it . Soak it in water 24 hours and PH test it . Good chance it’s limestone or at least partly . Why as a store would you bring bags of Rock 1/2 way across a continent . When screened limestone is sold buy the ton and spread on every parking lot in the province . I’ll stick with granite one other point granite is heavy adds a nice bit of stability to a small pot . But hope your younger than me when you are moving grow boxes

In store vid says it’s from mine in bc and PH neutral blows my mind they will ship that here for winter traction product . They put limestone on 1/2 the roads and every parking lot in the province