Ponderosa From Burlap Bonanza
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fore
Omono
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
This is looking good Chris! I would proceed s l o w l y.... but that's me.
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
looking really good! i got one from burlap bonanza this year and has just continued to decline. Needles are browning and no new growth. Can't seem to figure it out. 
fore
Omono
This is looking good Chris! I would proceed s l o w l y.... but that's me.
Thanks Judy. And I agree, it's growing so robustly now that I hate to 'rock the boat' so to say. But I know it needs to be worked some, I'm just not sure when lol
fore
Omono
looking really good! i got one from burlap bonanza this year and has just continued to decline. Needles are browning and no new growth. Can't seem to figure it out.
Can you post a pic? It sounds like it's slowly dying as that's what happened to my first one I got from Andy..though it wasn't a burlap one. Send some pics to Andy and get his opinion.
A note, I prob. only removed 20% of the duff when I potted it up...maybe this is the culprit?
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
I'll try and get a pic up in my thread later if I can, depending on weather. It is awfully wet here lately. I have moved it out of the rain when it was for several consecutive days. I don't think it is staying too wet though because it is in fast draining soil. I didn't remove any roots when I potted it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Chris, are you planning to use the "fall technique" described in Jackel's book? Or, have you tried that on any other ponderosa? This one looks pretty much like it's ready for the next step based on all that vigor.
Chris
Chris
october
Masterpiece
looking really good! i got one from burlap bonanza this year and has just continued to decline. Needles are browning and no new growth. Can't seem to figure it out.
You know, I am starting to see that sometimes, the balled and burlap situation might not be good for some bonsai projects. However this is mostly in regards to some garden centers, not necessarily bonsai growers. This is what I have noticed in my experience. Most are in clay or some kind of terrible soil. It is only when you get the bag off that you see how bad things are. Now, as bonsai enthusiasts, we try to stick to the one major insult a year. Certainly stick to not majorly disturbing the roots twice a season. Now, chances are, these balled and burlaped trees were ripped out of the ground. In some cases probably heavilly root pruned and stuck in terrible soil. Now, we get them. We open up the bag, half of the crap soil falls off the root ball and just like that..you have 2 root disturbances in one season. One, being ripped from the gound and root pruned. Second, taking the bag off, some soil falls away then we put it in a different container with good soil. Problem is, sometimes you can't tell how much work has been done before the burlaping.
Rob
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Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
I see what you are saying and it's definitely a lot of stress on a tree. Throw in adapting to a different climate and its more stress. I'm hoping mine is just weakened and comes back.
treebeard55
Chumono
Rob, I strongly suggest you read Andy Smith's little book, "Wild for Bonsai." (OK, I would have chosen a different title, but the book is worth the price, in my opinion.)
In it, he describes how he finds trees; how he evaluates them, to determine if they are collectable; and how he goes about digging the ones he does collect. He passes up well over half the trees he checks out (maybe close to 90%) because their root systems wouldn't survive collection and/or they couldn't be confined to a pot and survive. He doesn't "rip" trees out of the ground; he describes how he digs them. The ones he collects are balled and burlapped in the field, in their native soil, whatever they were growing in for however many years.
Most trees he collects are repotted at his nursery and then grown on for at least a year, often two; that way he can make sure he doesn't sell something that will die in the first winter. The "Burlap Bonanza" trees are an exception. Those trees are put up for sale within a couple of months of collection, and are sold just as he brought them back from the field (and with a layer of plastic around the burlap before they're boxed for shipment, for moisture retention.)
If you buy a Burlap Bonanza tree, you get a recently-collected tree that's still in its native soil; you accept any risks involved in repotting it and any problems that haven't shown up in the first several months. In return, you save a nice chunk of money. It's a reasonable trade.
All this is made clear on his website. You know what you're getting, and if you have much experience at all in bonsai, you should be able to assess for yourself whether your skill is up to the situation. I wouldn't encourage a newbie to buy a "Burlap Bonanza" tree, as a rule.
Rob, there are probably -- and very regrettably -- collectors out there who fit the picture you were drawing, "ripping" trees out of the ground and slapping them in "terrible soil." Andy Smith isn't one of those, and this thread is about trees bought from him.
I couldn't help but notice that you were throwing in "chances are," "in some cases probably," and otherwise speculating. May I suggest that you be more careful about the speculation another time?
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october
Masterpiece
Thanks treebeard.. Although Ny's tree was from a good source. I was referring to local garden centers. Not bonsai related bonsai sellers and growers. When I said "my experience", I should have been more specific. I am talking about when you go to a local nursery and buy a tree meant for the landscape. I probably should have separated garden center and actual bonsai growers. I know Andy Smith is very respectable and I apologize if I lumped him in with the others. It was unintentional and I was just venting over some frustration I have recently had with this sort of thing. Actually, I will edit and rephrase my original statement so it does not seem directed at good sources.
Rob
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Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
Despite this thread being about Andy Smith's trees I don't think Rob was singling him out and speaking more in general terms of bare root/burlap trees offered from a variety of places. At least that was the way I read it.
I think most people know that Andy has a good rep and I certainly would not place any blame on him for the loss of a tree purchased at the burlap bonanza. Unless a tree shows up already in a state of decline i would never blame a seller. Trees die for a variety of reasons. most seasoned folks know this going in when purchasing a tree from anywhere.
I think most people know that Andy has a good rep and I certainly would not place any blame on him for the loss of a tree purchased at the burlap bonanza. Unless a tree shows up already in a state of decline i would never blame a seller. Trees die for a variety of reasons. most seasoned folks know this going in when purchasing a tree from anywhere.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I have found balled and burlaped trees from nurseries to be highly variable in terms of roots and soil quality. Most seem to be in a very heavy, dense clay that is difficult to clean out without removing most of the finer roots. These trees often take a while to re-establish when planted in the ground or a large pot.
I have 2 of Andy's burlap bonanza trees (both ponderosas). Both came with compact, self-contained root systems embedded in the native "pine duff", which is actually a rather dense peat like soil. I didn't remove very much of it when I first potted them about 2 years ago. Both trees are doing well (except for tip moth damage to one this spring). I did unpot one to examine the root system and found a nice mass of healthy, growing roots in the new soil and at the bottom of the pot. At some point I'm going to have to work on removing that native soil, hopefully that will go well.
Chris
I have 2 of Andy's burlap bonanza trees (both ponderosas). Both came with compact, self-contained root systems embedded in the native "pine duff", which is actually a rather dense peat like soil. I didn't remove very much of it when I first potted them about 2 years ago. Both trees are doing well (except for tip moth damage to one this spring). I did unpot one to examine the root system and found a nice mass of healthy, growing roots in the new soil and at the bottom of the pot. At some point I'm going to have to work on removing that native soil, hopefully that will go well.
Chris
fore
Omono
Chris, I have not used that technique yet. I'm going to try Ryan N's approach as copied below. But I'll at some point try it as it says in the book, it's most effective the first time.
Believe it or not, I got this 5/12. So this is only yr 1. But it looks more like it's yr 2. So I'm just going to continue to fertilize the hell out of it (i've got a lot of osmocote on it, and use that strong MG q. wk. with the EZ Flow.) So the goal will be 'yr 3': "Develop back buds into foliage by fertilizing". And if the int. new buds are strong, then I'll style it this fall. If not, I'll just got back to 'yr2' and go another yr. And if the tree is in 'yr 3' stage by this fall, I'll cut the candles in may as Ryan suggested.
The only thing I'm still unsure about, for both this PP and my JBP is removing needles. This PP he says " allow single candle, harden off, then cut to stub with few prs needles" under the development stage. But I've also been told to never remove the old needles. Same with his JBP video, every spring, reduce needles to ?12pairs...of new needles, old needles? He never said. So I'm a bit embarrassed still to say I don't understand 'needle management' that well. I mistakenly removed most of old needles, and I'm pretty sure that contributed to my lost branches..and inadeq. watering.
This is kinda what Ryan N. said in his Single Flush Pines video:
Two ways. Yamadori out of mountains: good plant if u see growth.
Year one: fertilize to develop roots every 4-6 wks.ORGANIC. This elongates needles. Along needles means more photosynthetisis
Year two: fertilize thru Autumn but for foliage, not roots. By fall, you'll see back budding.
Year three. Develop back buds into foliage by fertilizing.
( follow this schedule will give a show able tree quicker.). Keep excessive foliage intact to make primary branches dev faster.
Autumn of Year Three : Style tree if healthy. No spring fertilization.
Methods of training:
In Refinement: pinching, leaving a portion of candles to maintain shape. A auxin removed, inhibits growth below. Should see growth of buds, pinch again for lat bud dev. Must pinch to dev lat buds to ext portion of dev
In Development: allow single candle, harden off, then cut to stub with few prs needles. This stimulates back budding ( contrary to JBP)
Best time is about mid may.
fore
Omono
You're right Rob. I bought a huge Mugo this spring from a lg. nursery in burlap. Got it home, took the burlap off, and fortunately? it was a mass of clayish dirt so nothing fell apart. In fact, I just used my rake to roughen up the ext. root ball and I still didn't expose any roots. I left it intact, the reason you said, it's already had one major root insult this yr. So I had to put it in a huge colander I had, with say 5-6" of bonsai soil around it. It's doing great, didn't miss a beat. but, it'll take me multiple repots to get it out of that clay. So I think it just takes more time and patience when working with bur lapped nursery material.
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fore
Omono
Chris, I spoke with Andy when I got this tree, he said to wait till 2015 to repot the first time. So that's 3 yrs from the initial pot. But I'm going to poke around and see how much the box has been filled with roots, if not packed with new roots, I'll prob wait longer.
And what is 'tip moth'? Never heard of it.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Google is your friend
One example: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/insect/05529.html
I don't know what species we have out here. Whatever ate the new growths on mine seemed to eat the buds from the inside, as I found some worms/pupa inside the dead buds. Not sure if it's a beetle or a moth, but it's very effective at what it does.
The repotting I did with mine was just a slip potting into a slightly larger container. I didn't touch the roots other than poking a few holes down through the peat duff (and filling with bonsai soil). This is something I've been doing a couple of times a year as recommended by Jackel.
Chris
fore
Omono
I'm thinking of doing 'some' needle removal on the 4 dominant apical branches. It's not distributing the energy evenly as 2 lower branches, while growing new buds, are weak. So some needle removal, and then I'm just going to use scrap wire to wire the branches out of the way to let more light to the bottom branches. I think this will help quite a bit.
mc4mc44
Mame
When it comes to most burlapped nursery material you are completely right. I've learned when a tree is in burlap from a nursery to either pass on it, or throw it in the ground without unwrapping it and wait. Landscape nurseries aren't thinking of the bonsai grower when they rip trees out of the ground, they're thinking every tree dug will end up somewhere in the front lawns of suburbia.
This situation is different though, Andy Smith takes care of his trees. I'm confident he wouldn't sell an unhealthy tree during the burlap bonanza, or one he thinks might not survive. If Andy had complaints from people about his burlapped trees not surviving i'm sure he wouldn't be selling them in the first place. I've bought 3 trees from him and they were all healthy from the start, including one tree from the burlap bonanza. Also, including this thread there are other examples on the forums of success with Andy's burlapped trees. Andy sells many burlapped trees each year, people wouldn't buy them if they didn't survive. And i'm sure we would see complaints right here on bonsainut if people had issues.
Sadly, in my beginners ignorance i killed my tree from the burlap bonanza. I put it in unsifted turface in a pot almost 2x to big. It turned brown quickly... It was a good learning experience though. I still plan to buy another of his burlapped trees someday.
