Ponderosa needle cast?

[Thomas Mitchell]

I don't have a ton of experience with pines, mostly young JBP pre-bonsai but I do have one nice yamadori Ponderosa which which I could use some help. After doing a lot of research on this site and others, I think I may have two separate but related issues and would like to test my diagnosis and action plan against the knowledge of the group.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

After the extreme heat we had in the PNW a few weeks back, my Ponderosa started showing signs of stress. The side of the tree that gets the most sun had some of the branches needles turn pale with a yellowish tinge, not the deep green of the new growth, especially on the other side of the tree. In some places the older needles straight up died - th e whole needle faded uniformly to brown. I have a lot of firs and hemlocks on my property that also have burned sections so my hypothesis is that this is something similar but would appreciate your perspectives, especially since Ponderosa are so sun tolerant (maybe to roos got hit?). Here's a photo:

ppnc01 by Thomas Mitchell, on Flickr

The second problem is that due to the frequent watering to fight the excessive heat, I may have set myself up with a needle cast fungal infection. Unlike the problem above which is isolated to one side of the tree, I'm seeing a smattering of needles like this all over. It appears to be needle cast but it would be great to get a confirmation. My plan is to apply Daconil right away with a fast follow of a systemic like Bonide Infused or Cleary's. Does that sound right? Here's a photo of the needles:

ppnc02 by Thomas Mitchell, on Flickr

 

[Pj86]

All the damage you showed is heat related. The banding is unlikely fungal. Typically pine needles will be aborted to preserve and transfer energy to the newer needles that remain on the tree. Unfortunately it will be 6-8 weeks after the heat wave that you will be able to tell what parts of the tree have been preserved. It is promising that you have this years needles intact, which means that the pine most likely did not catastrophically collapse. Balance of water and oxygen will give the tree its best chance of recovery. I would not apply Daconil as this can further damage the roots system.

 

[shimbrypaku]

My ponderosa cast all it’s needles one winter.
It was a pitiful sight.
Very wet winter and cold temperatures.
I keep my ponderosa in full sun as much as possible,water every day in the summer.

Bonide INFUSE Lawn & Landscape Fungicide Granules

Bonide INFUSE Lawn & Landscape Fungicide Granules

www.domyown.com

I also used Daconil


I also used Daconil

hope this helps

 

[ShadyStump]

A general thing I've noticed when killing my pines is that if it's the roots that have gone wrong, and the tree is in its death throws, the needles will turn brown starting from the bottom up, and inside out. That's the bottom branches, needles closest to the trunk change and die first, and work out from there. Often a very slow process that leaves you wondering for weeks or even months if you can save it, even though it's already too late.

I concur that the lose needles you show there are consistent with heat or sun damage. Couldn't tell you much else.

How about some details? How long have you had it, where it came from, etc? Pic of the whole thing? It would get all the, "is plugged in and turned on," type questions out of the way at least.

 

[shimbrypaku]

Sorry for the double edit
Phone connectivity issue

 

[Potawatomi13]

Only most rarely do personal Ponderosas or other pines get H2O on foliage other than rain. Excellent drainage H2O every day to day and one half has done well so far this year. Have only seen needlecast on personal JBP/no others. Yours looks like allowed to dry out too much. As long as green needles live do not cut off branch if hoping to keep.

 

[Thomas Mitchell]

Thanks all for the feedback that this looks like only heat damage and not a follow-up fungal infection.

I don't think the tree got too dry (was worried about the opposite) but it certainly could have gotten burned or too hot in the pot. I had a fair amount of burn on my maples and fruiting trees but all have bounced back quickly. The huge firs and hemlocks around my house all have browned tips on the sunward side which has never happened before in my tenure here.

Will continue convalescent care and close monitoring of air/water which has been the path so far.

 

[ShadyStump]

Remember that pines only grow one new needles once a year (general rule- yes some species CAN push a second flush sometimes) and those needles stick around for several years, so it will be a while until the damaged foliage will naturally replace itself. DO NOT try to speed up that process by removing damaged needles. It won't work out well.

 

[Colorado]

Ryan Neil recently did a podcast with Todd Schlafer discussing this heat event, and described the exact same presentation that you’re seeing there on your tree. I’d recommend listening to it.

I would not treat with chemicals. All the evidence here points to heat/sun damage, not fungal infection.

 

[Thomas Mitchell]

Ryan Neil recently did a podcast with Todd Schlafer discussing this heat event, and described the exact same presentation that you’re seeing there on your tree. I’d recommend listening to it.

I would not treat with chemicals. All the evidence here points to heat/sun damage, not fungal infection.

Thanks for the heads up! I do subscribe to Mirai Live but haven't been in the middle of moving and such and haven't logged in lately.

 

[Bonsai305]

Ryan Neil recently did a podcast with Todd Schlafer discussing this heat event, and described the exact same presentation that you’re seeing there on your tree. I’d recommend listening to it.

I would not treat with chemicals. All the evidence here points to heat/sun damage, not fungal infection.

I was about to start a new post but saw this thread and thought it a good place to chime in; these are my Ponderosa needles, very similar to Brownheron's needles, I was thinking Dothistroma, but this thread might have a lot of input, I'm especially curious if anyone sees more than one thing going on.

 

[Colorado]

I was about to start a new post but saw this thread and thought it a good place to chime in; these are my Ponderosa needles, very similar to Brownheron's needles, I was thinking Dothistroma, but this thread might have a lot of input, I'm especially curious if anyone sees more than one thing going on.

View attachment 391728

Are these needles evenly distributed across the foliage mass, or confined more to a specific region/branch?

 

[Bonsai305]

Evenly distributed

 

[Colorado]

Are those you’ve shown first year needles, second year needles, third year needles? Can you post photo of entire tree and some of the needles actually on the branch?

 

[Bonsai305]

Mostly second and third year, very few first year needles. I do not have a photo, I removed all (90%) of the effected needles.

 

[Colorado]

Hard to say just from the photo of the needles. Perhaps someone else will chime in. Good luck!

 

[ShadyStump]

Mostly second and third year, very few first year needles. I do not have a photo, I removed all (90%) of the effected needles.

About how much of the foliage affected? And can you give us some backstory on the tree?
Knowing what it's been through recently may help narrow it down.

FWIW, this is sort of what my pines have often looked like when they start to go south permanently.