Ponderosa Pine... in Dallas, Texas?

[tmjudd1]

I spoke to a gentleman, in Deadwood South Dakota, about possibly purchasing a 'collected' Ponderosa Pine. He told me that he ships many pines here, but the health of those trees, in my climate, come in a mixed bag. Some folks in Dallas seem to have good success, others do not. Could the failures be a 'climate' thing, or perhaps just a lack of proper care? As per the time of my chat with him, this afternoon, it was 25 degrees in Deadwood. At that same time it was 64 degrees here in Dallas. Could 'this' be the issue? Do Ponderosa Pines need to freeze their butts off, for extended periods of time during the winter?

 

[0soyoung]

I think it is called 'bud chilling hours' or something like that - the number of accumulated hours below 40F-45F/5C-8C that is required before buds will break (when temperatures subsequently rise).

Douglas fir is well known to require at least 1750 hours for the winter buds to break. Trees in higher elevations are found to have even longer chill times. Lodgepole pine is something like 1100 hours. Ponderosa in the wild are consistently noted to break bud later than Lodgepole, so it is reasonable to infer that the bud chill time for Ponderosa is something more than 1100 hours and that this may vary, depending on the regions from with they were collected.

Personally, I'm surprised any Ponderosa survive in Dallas. There's the occasional blue norther and ice storm, but it just doesn't stay cold that long, does it? I'm in a zone 8 as is Ryan Neil, Randy Knight, and Michael Haggedorn. But it stays cool a long time here. We all live in a Douglas fir forest, so there's no bud-chill problem here for Ponderosa.

 

[arcina]

I spoke to a gentleman, in Deadwood South Dakota, about possibly purchasing a 'collected' Ponderosa Pine. He told me that he ships many pines here, but the health of those trees, in my climate, come in a mixed bag. Some folks in Dallas seem to have good success, others do not. Could the failures be a 'climate' thing, or perhaps just a lack of proper care? As per the time of my chat with him, this afternoon, it was 25 degrees in Deadwood. At that same time it was 64 degrees here in Dallas. Could 'this' be the issue? Do Ponderosa Pines need to freeze their butts off, for extended periods of time during the winter?

I have been collecting Ponderosa Pines for 5 years and I bring them to Dallas. They do really well. The main issue in Dallas is watering. Most of the pines that die here is because over watering because the temps are very high so people water them too many times.

If you want to see some examples check my site. www.chobonsaiyamadori.com

Douglas fir, limber pine, lodgepole pine do tend to die after 2-3 years. They do require enough freezing days during dormancy.

SW White pines, AZ Pines, Pinyon Pine, Pitch Pine, Chiricahua Pine and other pines from more South do really well here. Of course, the main issue is watering with most of one-flush pines.

 

[bonsaidave]

DFW gets lots of cold just not a ton of below freezing cold. Today is a perfect example, the high was 66f (beautiful day) and the low will be 40f. 4 of the next 5 days we won't get above 50f. Add those cold night time hours with the week of freezing cold days and you have a bunch of cold hours.

There are pine forests in several areas of Texas. East Texas has a massive forest and Lost Pines near Austin to name a few.

 

[0soyoung]

DFW gets lots of cold just not a ton of below freezing cold. Today is a perfect example, the high was 66f (beautiful day) and the low will be 40f. 4 of the next 5 days we won't get above 50f. Add those cold night time hours with the week of freezing cold days and you have a bunch of cold hours.

Just to make it simple, 1008 hours is exactly 6 weeks. If the temperature is below 40F for 12 hours or half a day, it will take 3 months to accumulate 1008 hours. If it is only an average of 8 hours overnight, it takes 4.5 months to accumulate the bunch of cold hours needed to keep ponderosa. Maybe it happens. There should be some historical climate/temperature records around to see if it usually does.

There are pine forests in several areas of Texas. East Texas has a massive forest and Lost Pines near Austin to name a few.

Yes, it does. I remember how the east Texas pine forest blew me away the first time I saw it. The same for the Lost pines, but both are dominantly pinus taeda - not quite the same kind of animal.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Being new to this, it’s easier to work with what grows in your area. Having to baby a tree along outside it’s normal range while also potting, pruning, and bending is a recipe for frustration. Pondys have never done well for me in B’ham. I have eventually lost every one I have collected in SD and brought home.

 

[markyscott]

Could the failures be a 'climate' thing...?

Interestingly, they are native to Texas at higher elevations in both the Davis and the Chisos mountains. They grow further south too - well into central Mexico. That said, in these places they are restricted to pretty high elevations. I tried a seedling in Houston - it lived for three years but barely grew. If I were to try another, I’d graft black pine foliage and roots before bringing it here.

S

 

[Michael P]

I can't say that this is true specifically for ponderosa pine, but the climate in DFW is a problem for many high desert species. This usually shows up in the summer. Daytime high temperatures are tolerable, but the very high nighttime temperatures are not. Any time the temperature is above 84 F, most plants are in heat stress to some degree. High desert species do not have enough time to recover when the overnight low is in the 80s F, which happens frequently in our summers. This is made worse by urban heat island effect and climate change.

Many species from the mountains of west Texas seem like they should be fine in DFW: tolerant of high daytime temperatures and drought, and cold hardy enough for our winters. But they fail because the summer nights are so warm. And it is easy to over-water a plant in constant heat stress.

 

[tmjudd1]

I have been collecting Ponderosa Pines for 5 years and I bring them to Dallas. They do really well. The main issue in Dallas is watering. Most of the pines that die here is because over watering because the temps are very high so people water them too many times.

If you want to see some examples check my site. www.chobonsaiyamadori.com

I've looked at your online photos of available stock... now I'd like to visit your location, here in Dallas, and take a closer look at your collected stock for sale. I cannot find you on Google, nor does your website list a physical address... so give me a physical address, please. We are actually quite close to one another. I live on Lake Lewisville...

 

[Adair M]

Are you looking for yamadori trunks?

JBP does well in Dallas, but it won’t be yamadori.

 

[tmjudd1]

I can't say that this is true specifically for ponderosa pine, but the climate in DFW is a problem for many high desert species. This usually shows up in the summer. Daytime high temperatures are tolerable, but the very high nighttime temperatures are not.

The Deadwood SD seller actually made mention of this!

 

[tmjudd1]

Are you looking for yamadori trunks?

Quite possibly! I'm going to start looking at things with a bit more development than the cute little 'sticks in pots' that I've been purchasing.

 

[Adair M]

Quite possibly! I'm going to start looking at things with a bit more development than the cute little 'sticks in pots' that I've been purchasing.

Ah.

I also helps to work with material that thrives in your climate. While JBP is not native to the Dallas area, it thrives there. They love heat, and are tolerant of the type of winters you have. (I’m assuming you’re looking for a pine.). The bonsaiSmiths should have some.

 

[tmjudd1]

I also helps to work with material that thrives in your climate. While JBP is not native to the Dallas area, it thrives there. They love heat, and are tolerant of the type of winters you have. (I’m assuming you’re looking for a pine.). The bonsaiSmiths should have some.

We'll see. I'll be meeting them next month!

 

[tmjudd1]

Interestingly, they are native to Texas at higher elevations in both the Davis and the Chisos mountains. They grow further south too - well into central Mexico. That said, in these places they are restricted to pretty high elevations. I tried a seedling in Houston - it lived for three years but barely grew. If I were to try another, I’d graft black pine foliage and roots before bringing it here.

Man, I miss the Davis Mountains. Used to spend a lot of time down there, as a boy, when my dad dragged me with him to pistol matches in Marfa. We camped out, did a lot of scouting in and around in the mountains above Fort Davis, as well as the surrounding areas. Beautiful rustic western country. The pistol matches were 'then' held at a range located at the Marfa airport, of all places! This was a long time ago! While my dad was at the range, shooting... 'I' was usually standing alongside the runway, at the airport, watching sleek, gorgeous sailplanes being pulled down the runway and towed aloft, one after another, towards the rocky, towering Davis Mountains that were graciously looming in the very near distance. I loved it all!
Before you ask... "No, we 'never', ever saw those infamous Marfa Lights!" LOL

 

[markyscott]

Man, I miss the Davis Mountains. Used to spend a lot of time down there, as a boy, when my dad dragged me with him to pistol matches in Marfa. We camped out, did a lot of scouting in and around in the mountains above Fort Davis, as well as the surrounding areas. Beautiful rustic western country. The pistol matches were 'then' held at a range located at the Marfa airport, of all places! This was a long time ago! While my dad was at the range, shooting... 'I' was usually standing alongside the runway, at the airport, watching sleek, gorgeous sailplanes being pulled down the runway and towed aloft, one after another, towards the rocky, towering Davis Mountains that were graciously looming in the very near distance. I loved it all!
Before you ask... "No, we 'never', ever saw those infamous Marfa Lights!" LOL

Very beautiful there. Other than banning shooting matches at the airport, I bet it hasn’t changed all that much. I’ve only been there a couple of times (it’s a 10 hour drive from Houston) to stay at Indian Lodge and try and cram in as much hiking as I can. Never saw the Maria lights either, but perhaps I didn’t drink enough Shiners, LOL. But I have to say, the Chisos are really something special. When you stand on the Rim Trail and can see the Santa Elena canyon nearly 30 miles away across all that spectacular desert landscape, it’s a view you’ll never soon forget. When the rest of the country is locked in snow, it’s the perfect time to go hiking in the Chisos. I’ll be there in February!

 

[Michael P]

The Window in winter.

 

[Mame-Mo]

I have been collecting Ponderosa Pines for 5 years and I bring them to Dallas. They do really well. The main issue in Dallas is watering. Most of the pines that die here is because over watering because the temps are very high so people water them too many times.

If you want to see some examples check my site. www.chobonsaiyamadori.com

Douglas fir, limber pine, lodgepole pine do tend to die after 2-3 years. They do require enough freezing days during dormancy.

SW White pines, AZ Pines, Pinyon Pine, Pitch Pine, Chiricahua Pine and other pines from more South do really well here. Of course, the main issue is watering with most of one-flush pines.

Is there some trick to getting the site to work? I've actually come across it before in an attempt to find yamadori and I can never navigate anywhere :/

 

[0soyoung]

Is there some trick to getting the site to work? I've actually come across it before in an attempt to find yamadori and I can never navigate anywhere :/

You must have some kind of browser problem. I use Chrome and it works fine because it supplies the missing http:// prolog to the url. When I use edge it is dead until I type in http://www. and so on - try this with your browser, it should work.

 

[arcina]

Is there some trick to getting the site to work? I've actually come across it before in an attempt to find yamadori and I can never navigate anywhere :/

Sorry for that. I think it doesn't work with Safari. Apple security is too high.