Possible maple seedlings for shohin forest?

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These seeds came from this large maple in my front yard...

image.jpg

Inspired by this video

I’m going to apply wire to some of these little guys
image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
to add movement and will be thinking in terms of a small forest.

I’ve done shohin forest before from sweetgum seedlings and have managed to kill them. Transplant fine, put out new growth for 6 months or so and then die. I’ve gotten a lot better over the last year or two so hopefully I’ll keep these around a bit longer!!

Cpl Q’s
Anybody know what species these seedlings are? At first I thought some variety of trident maple but know I’m not sure

Dude in the video says spring just before buds pop I do believe, or possibly autumn. Is it true digging maple seedlings and cutting their tap roots in autumn is a good idea, or should I wait till spring??

Thanks
 

sorce

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These maple seedling tend to be whatever they want. Even pretending to be 3 different types of maple with each new leaf.

They vary greatly, possibly too much in some instances to bother with a forest.

Better to collect saplings that are already displaying similarities. Or grow these out alone before combining. Please don't combine them so early in such a small pot!

Plan.

Sorce
 
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These maple seedling tend to be whatever they want. Even pretending to be 3 different types of maple with each new leaf.

They vary greatly, possibly too much in some instances to bother with a forest.

Better to collect saplings that are already displaying similarities. Or grow these out alone before combining. Please don't combine them so early in such a small pot!

Plan.

Sorce
A little confused. Did you watch the video??
Combing small trees now in a small pot will allow them to grow and fuse together in the small pot. Yes they will grow slow, but trunk size is already there. Keeping them small is ideal for a shohin forest.

These seedlings all look exactly the same.

Check out that video I posted. Looking to go that route. Very small, almost mame.
 
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What about autumn collecting??

Keep in mind guys these are free just growing around the house.
 

sorce

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Collecting now is good.

I watched that video a while back.

It is slightly possible that a shohin winter image may be enjoyable from that pot, but you'll never build a good leafed forest in that manner. Shohin or otherwise.

Remember, what sells videos is more format than content.

Big names don't always equate best growing capabilities.

Sorce
 
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Are you saying the pot is too small for a good shohin forest? Bc trees will never fully develop in a pot that size?

I get what your saying about growing the trees individually for size. But if going so small that the size of trunk is already achieved...

For a leafed forest, growing in a small pot and growing for ramification aids in leaf reduction. Sorry not try to be ignorant, but I’m just not understanding.
 

Warpig

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Collecting now is good.

I watched that video a while back.

It is slightly possible that a shohin winter image may be enjoyable from that pot, but you'll never build a good leafed forest in that manner. Shohin or otherwise.

Remember, what sells videos is more format than content.

Big names don't always equate best growing capabilities.

Sorce

Quoted for truth.
 

Warpig

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Are you saying the pot is too small for a good shohin forest? Bc trees will never fully develop in a pot that size?

I get what your saying about growing the trees individually for size. But if going so small that the size of trunk is already achieved...

For a leafed forest, growing in a small pot and growing for ramification aids in leaf reduction. Sorry not try to be ignorant, but I’m just not understanding.

I think what Sorce is getting at is more about the leaf canopy then the trunk size. It is going to be real hard to make it look like anything more then cuttlings in a pot.
 

kouyou

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@Daniel son STL it sounds like what you're putting together is more like an ephemeral kusamono

I agree with @sorce that you're going from seedling to display, and skipping the development and design stages

you mentioned fused bases -- here is better example of a shohin maple clump than the one in the video you posted:

 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Daniel son STL
You are in Saint Louis, a city I visit often. The parent tree that was the seed donor looks to be Acer x Freemanii - a hybrid maple often used by Midwestern municipalities for a tree to plant in the parkways along the streets. My sister in Ballwin has 2 planted by the city in front of her house. It is a hybrid of the native red maple Acer rubrum with the native silver maple Acer saccharinum. (not to be confused with sugar maple Acer saccharum) Its wood is nearly as hard as the red maple, where the silver maple is soft wood. It has great leaf color, where the silver maple has yellow to green for autumn color. It has the added disease resistance and vigor and overall size from the silver maple, in particular the vigor and tolerance for less than ideal conditions is why they are so popular as a street tree.

It will likely have long leaf petioles, that will not reduce in scale with the tree. The leaves will reduce, but the leaf petioles will not reduce. Makes for a weird ''flag'' look. But winter silhouette should be nice.

As to the video - Morton Albek gave a short warning and then never returned to it. He said "Once you put these seedlings in these small pots, the trunk diameters will not increase, do not plan on them to increase". Morton creates really small shohin, and yes, these are almost kusamono like, except they do feature trees, not grasses and flowering perennials.

I would say go ahead and try to do exactly as Morton does. It will be a challenge to keep well watered in a hot Saint Louis summer. Morton waters his twice a day, in his relatively mild northern EU climate. I suggest you partially bury these small pots in a larger bonsai pot, so that roots escape and can draw water in from the larger pot below. Trim the escape roots off in the autumn. Show your little trees in winter. And make sure they are back, partially buried in larger pots before the first 90 F days of summer, so roots can escape and draw in sufficient water. You want to be able to water only once a day or you won't be able to keep your day job.

Sorce's suggestion to grow trees individually is routine for larger scale forests. Even some shohin forests are grown first as separate trees. You try to get the trunk diameters up to the desired finished diameter before assembling the forest. Because once roots are trimmed to the minimal used for forest plantings, the trunk will not increase much at all in diameter.

So if the seedlings you have are the diameter you want for your forest, go ahead and assemble it. If you want larger diameter trunks in your forest, grow them separately and assemble later.

While trunk diameter will be very slow to not at all to increase, branches will develop in a tiny pot like that.

The whole aesthetic of these ultra small shohin that Morton Albeck makes is very minimalist. The branches and such will be mere suggestions of branching, you won't get more than 2 levels of ramification, one level might be all you get. It will be more an abstract representation of a forest. But with the nice oranges, reds and yellows of the autumn foliage, or the bare silhouette these could be quite nice to look at.
 
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@Daniel son STL it sounds like what you're putting together is more like an ephemeral kusamono

I agree with @sorce that you're going from seedling to display, and skipping the development and design stages

you mentioned fused bases -- here is better example of a shohin maple clump than the one in the video you posted:

So couldn’t something like that clump be obtained by putting twigs in a small pot and let them grow together. I would have escape roots of course dropping down into a bigger training pot faster growth/fusing of trunks/they don’t dry out as quick.
 
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@Daniel son STL
You are in Saint Louis, a city I visit often. The parent tree that was the seed donor looks to be Acer x Freemanii - a hybrid maple often used by Midwestern municipalities for a tree to plant in the parkways along the streets. My sister in Ballwin has 2 planted by the city in front of her house. It is a hybrid of the native red maple Acer rubrum with the native silver maple Acer saccharinum. (not to be confused with sugar maple Acer saccharum) Its wood is nearly as hard as the red maple, where the silver maple is soft wood. It has great leaf color, where the silver maple has yellow to green for autumn color. It has the added disease resistance and vigor and overall size from the silver maple, in particular the vigor and tolerance for less than ideal conditions is why they are so popular as a street tree.

It will likely have long leaf petioles, that will not reduce in scale with the tree. The leaves will reduce, but the leaf petioles will not reduce. Makes for a weird ''flag'' look. But winter silhouette should be nice.

As to the video - Morton Albek gave a short warning and then never returned to it. He said "Once you put these seedlings in these small pots, the trunk diameters will not increase, do not plan on them to increase". Morton creates really small shohin, and yes, these are almost kusamono like, except they do feature trees, not grasses and flowering perennials.

I would say go ahead and try to do exactly as Morton does. It will be a challenge to keep well watered in a hot Saint Louis summer. Morton waters his twice a day, in his relatively mild northern EU climate. I suggest you partially bury these small pots in a larger bonsai pot, so that roots escape and can draw water in from the larger pot below. Trim the escape roots off in the autumn. Show your little trees in winter. And make sure they are back, partially buried in larger pots before the first 90 F days of summer, so roots can escape and draw in sufficient water. You want to be able to water only once a day or you won't be able to keep your day job.

Sorce's suggestion to grow trees individually is routine for larger scale forests. Even some shohin forests are grown first as separate trees. You try to get the trunk diameters up to the desired finished diameter before assembling the forest. Because once roots are trimmed to the minimal used for forest plantings, the trunk will not increase much at all in diameter.

So if the seedlings you have are the diameter you want for your forest, go ahead and assemble it. If you want larger diameter trunks in your forest, grow them separately and assemble later.

While trunk diameter will be very slow to not at all to increase, branches will develop in a tiny pot like that.

The whole aesthetic of these ultra small shohin that Morton Albeck makes is very minimalist. The branches and such will be mere suggestions of branching, you won't get more than 2 levels of ramification, one level might be all you get. It will be more an abstract representation of a forest. But with the nice oranges, reds and yellows of the autumn foliage, or the bare silhouette these could be quite nice to look at.

I totally get what your saying. Where talking mame, almost accent plant size. At least for this one. So ramification is to a minimal. I’ve got plenty others that I’m letting grow by themselves for other experiments
 

kouyou

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So couldn’t something like that clump be obtained by putting twigs in a small pot and let them grow together.

there are a few ways of going about developing a maple clump, and the way you are suggesting is perhaps one of them but i don't know if it is the way that anybody would suggest all things considered (as you're witnessing above in the very helpful responses you've received)

there is a book that was just published in english which goes over all of the developmental procedures that you can combine and use in different ways depending on your design-goals of any maple you are working on


Keep in mind guys these are free just growing around the house

if this is the case, then you are in a perfection position to try-out your idea and observe the results :)

Or, if your goal is to make this the best tree it can be, pay close attention to the advice you have received, especially:

1) the species is incompatible with the desired design

2) the development-procedure is wrong absent for the desired design

you can use these plants to make a great bonsai, but the design needs to change and the developmental procedure should follow it
 
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Here is a example of a group I threw together all grown separately
Before and after styling
74B8C734-FAC5-437F-943A-FEF65CE46FC3.jpegF66F2358-A0D1-4C93-B651-BC460A411185.jpeg

These were grown separately to appropriate size then arranged together.

What I’m going for with these maple seedlings is much much smaller, with a lot more trunks involved.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Best advice is from Smoke.

@Daniel son STL - you are considerably younger than me, here is a project if you want it.

Acer x freemanii - it is a nice, rapid growing maple. Leaves and petioles come into scale as a larger bonsai. In the 3 to 4 foot tall range, this can be an excellent tree with enough presence to hold its own at a show. I would encourage you to pick a few seedlings to grow out individually, get them up to at least 4 inch trunk diameter. They grow fast, this should not take long. Read Brent Walston's articles about growing trunks and growing maples, at

Your Freeman maple should be as good for bonsai as the American red maple, Acer rubrum. It is fully winter hardy, can be wintered by simply setting the pot on the ground, in a winter shade location, and walk away. No heat necessary. Open sky in the shade of a fence, building or whatever, keeps exposed to snow, ice, rain all the elements, which will keep it fully dormant until it is really spring. Shade prevents sun scald of the bark, which happens on cold sunny winter days.

Have fun, try many things, just do it, to quote Smoke.
 

Kanorin

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@Daniel son STL - I'm also in St. Louis and I've been wondering about the maple growing across the street. I suspect it may also be an Acer x freemanii. I might just join in on this "project."
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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there are a few ways of going about developing a maple clump, and the way you are suggesting is perhaps one of them but i don't know if it is the way that anybody would suggest all things considered (as you're witnessing above in the very helpful responses you've received)

there is a book that was just published in english which goes over all of the developmental procedures that you can combine and use in different ways depending on your design-goals of any maple you are working on




if this is the case, then you are in a perfection position to try-out your idea and observe the results :)

Or, if your goal is to make this the best tree it can be, pay close attention to the advice you have received, especially:

1) the species is incompatible with the desired design

2) the development-procedure is wrong absent for the desired design

you can use these plants to make a great bonsai, but the design needs to change and the developmental procedure should follow it

Hi,
Great advice and the OP has a great thread of info to reference going forward.
Sadly the maple book by the Italian dude is now sold out 😩😢, so I was too late. Never mind. I do have Bill Valavanis’s book though.
Charles
 
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