Possible to collect Cedar Elm Growing through/in rock?

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I found a Cedar Elm growing on a property that is being cleared for development over the next few years. I am checking to see when this section of land will be cleared to give me a timeline. It is either growing through this limestone rock or growing in the limestone rock. I can't lift the rock so I am thinking it is growing through or their is much more rock buried. Or I am vastly overestimating my own strength!

I have some small collected cedar elms to work with and give me some experience before trying such a nice older tree. I figure it is risky but if it is being cleared for a shopping mall then give it a try.

IMG080b.JPGIMG079 (1).jpg

1. This trunk is 4" or 5" and looks like pretty great potential to me. Is it worth the work?
2. I have a come-a-long and could try to pull the rock out. If the tap root is growing through then I guess the come-a-long would break it?
3. I can try to shovel under the rock but seems like alot of tunnel work.
4. I could try to chip the rock away and get the tree out of the rock?

I would love to have the tree stay in the rock. My vision would be to cut that rock in half so that it is only a few inches tall, hollow out the rock from the under side to creat space for soil and root work. If I had a better working knowledge of stone work to split the rock down!

If I can get the whole rock out I think I could break away at the rock from the bottom up to make it smaller. Limestone is pretty soft and I have had alot of luck splitting them for landscaping.
 

crust

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Wow,
I would consider watching some u-tubes on how Carpinus Chinesis are being extracted from rock over in Europe. The key seems to be using a come-a-long to put great tearing pressure on the tree then chip and chisel around the base. Not much fiberous root comes but it is enough for the species. I personally have used a hydralic tool designed for repairing smashed metal which has a hydralic base hand pump and several different heads such as a spreader and a short ram. I use it to break away or move rock--sometimes it works. Good luck I would definitly go for it.
 

pjkatich

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How much of that trunk were you thinking of removing?

From the photo, I don't see much taper in that trunk. If that is the case, I don't see this being worth the effort.

Regards,
Paul
 

pjkatich

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I personally have used a hydralic tool designed for repairing smashed metal which has a hydralic base hand pump and several different heads such as a spreader and a short ram. I use it to break away or move rock--sometimes it works.

Hi Crust,

That sounds like a handy too to have around when you are collecting in rocky country.

Regards,
Paul
 

Ang3lfir3

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Wow,
I would consider watching some u-tubes on how Carpinus Chinesis are being extracted from rock over in Europe. The key seems to be using a come-a-long to put great tearing pressure on the tree then chip and chisel around the base. Not much fiberous root comes but it is enough for the species. I personally have used a hydralic tool designed for repairing smashed metal which has a hydralic base hand pump and several different heads such as a spreader and a short ram. I use it to break away or move rock--sometimes it works. Good luck I would definitly go for it.

When collecting Ponderosa from deep thin cracks we often have to make use of the San Angelo bar ... the pointed end and the assistants of a few friends arms can break those cracks open! I like your idea of the hydraulic tool.... you have any links??
 

crust

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No links but Hydraulic spreader kit in Googles does it. They market to Autobody shops. 200 bucks on up. I have seen a special powder that is used to split rock. It expands in drilled holes and breaks the stone...but whatever. I once found a old sleeve rock splitter that used gunpowder: just put the point in the crack and hit the slidding wedge with a hammer igniting a charge which drives a it ahead spreading the sleeves..think of the havoc and destruction one could make. I assume a San Angelo bar is a 5 ft. straight steel pry bar.

lic
When collecting Ponderosa from deep thin cracks we often have to make use of the San Angelo bar ... the pointed end and the assistants of a few friends arms can break those cracks open! I like your idea of the hydraulic tool.... you have any links??
 

edprocoat

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Limestone rock can be broke up fairly easy with a hammer and a chisel, problem is it does not break away in neat planned sections, let me put it this way, say you wanted to break it in half you may wind up with ten pieces. That could be a massive rock underground, best thing to do is dig down and find out how big a piece you are dealing with. I took a piece of Fl. limestone rock similiar to that on my Dad's place years ago, it had an almost perfect bowl shaped hole near the top, I tried to chisel the piece I wanted off, about a foot diameter piece, and about the third hit and the whole top busted up and about a foot down the rock came with it in multiple small useless pieces, it sort of shattered,

ed
 

crust

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I for sure would not bother trying to save any rock ( and as edpro says being its limestone won't come whole)--just get it out.
 

Brian Underwood

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You could always air layer at the very base and collect it next year. That would also give you more taper...
 

Zach Smith

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I'm with Paul on this one. I don't see much taper in either tree. If it were me I wouldn't waste the effort.

Zach
 

jk_lewis

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Ditto. You expend a lot of sweat ONLY for a tree with great potential.

This tree isn't worth a hernia and a bad back.
 

rockm

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FWIW, Taper is not a real issue with cedar elm. They are extremely apically dominant-- a trunk chop would be filled in and unnoticeable mostly on this tree five years from now. There is already a branch that can be used for the new apex.

I'd say this tree is well worth collecting IF,( and there are a series of rather big and heavy ifs,) the rock cooperates. IF it's not too big to take out, IF the tree has adequate and accessible roots, IF some of the rock can be removed to bring it into proportion for a pot...

This tree COULD be worth collecting WITH THE ROCK. Without the rock, it's pretty run-of-the-mill...
 
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Another unknown is if the tree has been collared by the rock... Being creative about how one busts rock away is always fun to discuss, but considering that tree looks like it's completely surrounded by rock, it'll likely be collared. In other words if the aperture the tree has grown through is narrow and deep, you'll have some pretty profound taper issues which would require you to layer it anyway... not trying to be discouraging - just adding to the food for thought. (If someone else already mentioned this and I missed it... sorry 'bout that. lol)

Good conversation though!

V
 
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