Potential Literati or ??? ... compost
- Thread starter ghues
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Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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This tree definitely has potential for literati or informal upright...or something in between. Definitely not compost worthy yet!
Dave
Dave
Chris Johnston
Omono
Yes, literati absolutely!
Chris
Chris
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I agree, Literati absolutely. Informal Upright is a possibility but it will take many years and a good deal of refinement, not to mention a great deal of aging; which Lodge Poles do not show as readily as some Pines. In my experience with them they are slow to form bark, choosing to remain smooth for a long time.
bisjoe
Yamadori
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
I will share a bit of my (very much still developing) philosophy, hopefully thereby answering your question.
I am involved with bonsai because I love trees. I have always loved trees and I spent many years of my life wandering the forests, foothills and river-bottoms of Colorado. It is those memories that are in my mind when I look at a bonsai (or a potential one).
So the question I would ask when looking at this pine is, "Can this potted plant evoke a mental image of a believable tree?"
For me that answer is yes.
Is drawing this image out of your tree something you wish to spend your time on in this instance? I don't know that answer.
Can it become the picture of Japanese art? I am not good enough to know that either.
I guess that was just a long way of saying maybe informal but definitely a literati.
I am involved with bonsai because I love trees. I have always loved trees and I spent many years of my life wandering the forests, foothills and river-bottoms of Colorado. It is those memories that are in my mind when I look at a bonsai (or a potential one).
So the question I would ask when looking at this pine is, "Can this potted plant evoke a mental image of a believable tree?"
For me that answer is yes.
Is drawing this image out of your tree something you wish to spend your time on in this instance? I don't know that answer.
Can it become the picture of Japanese art? I am not good enough to know that either.
I guess that was just a long way of saying maybe informal but definitely a literati.
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Ang3lfir3
Omono
it certainly can become a nice literati.... with some decent branch selection and appropriate wiring you have the portentail to create a very interesting literati from this tree. they are very flexible too so you should have no trouble making those branches appropriately gnarly.
ghues
Omono
Thank you all for your responses and suggestions.
Vance…..I have to agree BUT only to a certain degree - on age and bark. I would suggest that this (relatively smooth bark over a longer more juvenile period) is generally true for the true Pl stands ....ones that develop into stands/forests large enough that they could to be harvested?? Whereas, the shore pine (subsp. contorta var.) around the area that I live and collect from, do show some wonderful age characteristics for many of them are very old.
Bisjo – thanks for the virt, I’ll keep it in mind. I was leaning towards using some of the longer thicker branches though.
Milehigh 7 – I too love trees and have been very fortunate to work (as a forester) and live in the Pacific Northwest forests for the last 34 years. This has given me a true appreciation for not only forests but also the climate, environmental conditions and the influences they have on forests and individual variances between species. I have and will continue to take photos of unique individuals while collecting, as I find them to be an inspiration for imitation in design and form.
I will sketch out a potential future for this one as I’m finding that it is an important step in the development of a Bonsai.
Ang3 – I agree that there are a number of potential branches to choice from and hope that it responds (back budding) well this year.
Cheers
Gman
Vance…..I have to agree BUT only to a certain degree - on age and bark. I would suggest that this (relatively smooth bark over a longer more juvenile period) is generally true for the true Pl stands ....ones that develop into stands/forests large enough that they could to be harvested?? Whereas, the shore pine (subsp. contorta var.) around the area that I live and collect from, do show some wonderful age characteristics for many of them are very old.
Bisjo – thanks for the virt, I’ll keep it in mind. I was leaning towards using some of the longer thicker branches though.
Milehigh 7 – I too love trees and have been very fortunate to work (as a forester) and live in the Pacific Northwest forests for the last 34 years. This has given me a true appreciation for not only forests but also the climate, environmental conditions and the influences they have on forests and individual variances between species. I have and will continue to take photos of unique individuals while collecting, as I find them to be an inspiration for imitation in design and form.
I will sketch out a potential future for this one as I’m finding that it is an important step in the development of a Bonsai.
Ang3 – I agree that there are a number of potential branches to choice from and hope that it responds (back budding) well this year.
Cheers
Gman
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Ang3lfir3
Omono
Gman.... I'll have to have Vic post the literati Shore Pine she got from Daniel.... the bark is ancient and thick.... diameter of the tree is less than 1 inch. The Shore Pines are by far the best of lodge poles when collected from areas where they grow extremely slow, luckily those can be found here in the PNW readily. The foliage also gets a rather deep green coloration which is very pleasing. I have a group that was collected this year that is no more than 3 inches tall per tree.... the bark is flaky and actually thicker than the sap wood on the trees themselves it's very awe inspiring.
GerhardG
Mame
I.......dunno.....
Hi
I'm in a funny spot in my young bonsai carreer, I've had to give away all those 20-years-to-anything plants, even gave away some of the better stuff and only kept what I really can't part with.
Now there is little to no time for art, and the practical rules...
I admit, my standards are not that high to begin with........
I would leave that tree as is.
I have nothing against literati, and the wise ones all vote the same way.....
I saw literati in the topic, I saw the photo, and the tree told me "don't cut me!"
Glad you need to make the choice, nice tree.
Hi
I'm in a funny spot in my young bonsai carreer, I've had to give away all those 20-years-to-anything plants, even gave away some of the better stuff and only kept what I really can't part with.
Now there is little to no time for art, and the practical rules...
I admit, my standards are not that high to begin with........
I would leave that tree as is.
I have nothing against literati, and the wise ones all vote the same way.....
I saw literati in the topic, I saw the photo, and the tree told me "don't cut me!"
Glad you need to make the choice, nice tree.
ghues
Omono
64...
Thanks for the idea,
I'm letting it grow this year as its back budded nicely...... will will give me more options.
Cheers Gman
Thanks for the idea,
I'm letting it grow this year as its back budded nicely...... will will give me more options.
Cheers Gman
treebeard55
Chumono
First, I too think it has definite potential as literati. (If you don't want it, send it to IN. ) But to me the trunkline looks very predictable. I would try to give it more individuality.
Just another perspective to feed into the computer between your ears ...
) But to me the trunkline looks very predictable. I would try to give it more individuality.Just another perspective to feed into the computer between your ears ...
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ghues
Omono
Thanks Treebeard,
This tree is shaped the way I found it.....as my first yamadori I wanted to keep the shape it came with rather than mold it into something else....of course the shape is different from various angles so maybe I just have to re-define the front?
Cheers Gman
This tree is shaped the way I found it.....as my first yamadori I wanted to keep the shape it came with rather than mold it into something else....of course the shape is different from various angles so maybe I just have to re-define the front?
Cheers Gman
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ghues
Omono
Literati to Windswept
Hi Folks, Here is an update on my shore pine. After examining the tree in more detail I realized that (as Vance had noted) the top growth bark was very immature.....it was the growth from the last 6-7 years of healing and recuperation (as the tree was very weak when I collected it)........ So here are a couple of photos showing how I changed it from a potential literati to the windswept pine. I know that it’s not a monster with all the benefits that come with large yamadori but its part of not only the trees evolution but also mine. I also know that I'll have to change the pot at some point but right now I'm leaning towards a seascape scene perhaps a small rugged coastal forest scenario.
As usual comments welcome.
G
Hi Folks, Here is an update on my shore pine. After examining the tree in more detail I realized that (as Vance had noted) the top growth bark was very immature.....it was the growth from the last 6-7 years of healing and recuperation (as the tree was very weak when I collected it)........ So here are a couple of photos showing how I changed it from a potential literati to the windswept pine. I know that it’s not a monster with all the benefits that come with large yamadori but its part of not only the trees evolution but also mine. I also know that I'll have to change the pot at some point but right now I'm leaning towards a seascape scene perhaps a small rugged coastal forest scenario.
As usual comments welcome.
G
Attachments
Nice pine. From the top view, it looks like you have horizontal movement in the branches, but from the front and back view, the branches look pretty straight and a bit too parallel. Are you able to put more vertical movement into the branches?
HI G
What happened to the literati
Hers my two cents worth. I have a problem with the design of the tree. You have a couple of different things going on, and for me, knocks it off visually. In the picture below the three colors represent a type of movement. To me, each color as it represents a movement, conflicts visually with each other.
The apex looks a bit contrived with that huge arc, and downward movement when compared against the trunk and branches. The branches are straight looking when compared to the trunk, and don't offer dimension.
I think your on the right path, you have a very nice and interesting trunk. Reflect that movement and interest in your apex and branches and you'll have a winner a few years down the road.
Thanks for sharing
What happened to the literati
Hers my two cents worth. I have a problem with the design of the tree. You have a couple of different things going on, and for me, knocks it off visually. In the picture below the three colors represent a type of movement. To me, each color as it represents a movement, conflicts visually with each other.
The apex looks a bit contrived with that huge arc, and downward movement when compared against the trunk and branches. The branches are straight looking when compared to the trunk, and don't offer dimension.
I think your on the right path, you have a very nice and interesting trunk. Reflect that movement and interest in your apex and branches and you'll have a winner a few years down the road.
Thanks for sharing
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ghues
Omono
Thanks mcpesq817 and Tom but RT I have no idea what you are saying?
I haven’t decided on a front yet and the bent top was to shorten the height and my thoughts were that I would carve it down some in a year or two. From some angles you don’t see that part of the bent top….see photo.
What I’ve seen with many WS trees here on the west coast is that any branches facing the prevailing winds gets broken off and most of the rest get “trained” in a big “v” (from the trunk) with many of the main branches being parrellel to each other
So what I think you are both saying is to put more movement into the three prevailing branches to emulate the movement of the main trunk??!!
They were long and thin so I was able to shorten them up by putting in some bends, so now I'll have to arrange them into a more flowing movement.
Thanks again.
Cheers G
I haven’t decided on a front yet and the bent top was to shorten the height and my thoughts were that I would carve it down some in a year or two. From some angles you don’t see that part of the bent top….see photo.
What I’ve seen with many WS trees here on the west coast is that any branches facing the prevailing winds gets broken off and most of the rest get “trained” in a big “v” (from the trunk) with many of the main branches being parrellel to each other
So what I think you are both saying is to put more movement into the three prevailing branches to emulate the movement of the main trunk??!!
They were long and thin so I was able to shorten them up by putting in some bends, so now I'll have to arrange them into a more flowing movement. Thanks again.
Cheers G
Attachments
So what I think you are both saying is to put more movement into the three prevailing branches to emulate the movement of the main trunk??!!
Thanks again.
Cheers G
Hi G
You putting in bends was a good thing. However you must have been standing over the tree when you did it, because from a downward angle is only how the bends are visible (ref. your last image).
When looking at a tree in a pot we normally look at it from eye level, ideally from 5 to 7 feet away. You represented that perspective well in your first images. So with those parameters set were looking at branches on basically one axis. Unfortunately the bends are not that axis and not really viewable on that plane of vision.
The image below represents to fields of view. The top one most representing what you tree shows in the first images and what bending roughly up and down would look like. Which one of the two images has more visual interest?
So to answer your question YES emulate the undulations in the trunk, but do it on a plane that the viewer can plainly see. It will add dimension to your tree.
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ghues
Omono
Thanks Tom
Dear Tom,
Thank you so much for taking the time to show some interest in my posts and for such a detailed explanation, you make it worthwhile posting pictures for us (newbie’s) even though we get a lot of snickers and laughs from others that view our attempts at this hobby.
I read one of Al’s posts about him being in it for 25 years and how the first 15 where a real “trial”…..shoot I don’t have 25 years so I have to learn fast… lol.
You confirmed what I was thinking after reading your first comments and looking at the first couple of photos I can see how this will make it more visually appealing and can see where I’ll be able to put some movement in.
Cheers and Thanks again
Dear Tom,
Thank you so much for taking the time to show some interest in my posts and for such a detailed explanation, you make it worthwhile posting pictures for us (newbie’s) even though we get a lot of snickers and laughs from others that view our attempts at this hobby.
I read one of Al’s posts about him being in it for 25 years and how the first 15 where a real “trial”…..shoot I don’t have 25 years so I have to learn fast… lol.
You confirmed what I was thinking after reading your first comments and looking at the first couple of photos I can see how this will make it more visually appealing and can see where I’ll be able to put some movement in.
Cheers and Thanks again
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