"potting soil" for collected trees

[Joe Dupre']

In the six years I've been doing this, I've found that collected trees potted into my own brew of potting soil do MUCH better than going into bonsai soil. Absolutely no doubt about it in MY bonsai garden. I've tried it both ways dozens of times. I say potting soil, but what I use is a big mix of leftover bonsai soil, composted pine bark WITH fines, the fines of Napa 8822 and whatever gets sifted out of pine bark fines that go into my normal bonsai soil. Proportions are APPROX. 85-90% organic and 10-15% inorganic ......mainly Napa 8822. Now, I do mostly native trees and some tropicals. Junipers go into my 50/50 bark/8822 mix.

I've also noticed that most trees slow down considerably when put in my 50/50 mix. That is a good thing when a tree is further along and you really don't want explosive growth. Still healthy growth and vigor , just not the crazy growth you see in newly collected trees.

Anyone have similar experiences?

 

[mrcasey]

I've had similar experience with deciduous trees like elm, hornbeam, beech, dogwood, rhododendron, and hawthorn. My collecting mix is equal parts perlite and composted pine bark, unsifted. I have almost no experience collecting pines, junipers, spruce, and other conifers.

 

[TN_Jim]

In the six years I've been doing this, I've found that collected trees potted into my own brew of potting soil do MUCH better than going into bonsai soil. Absolutely no doubt about it in MY bonsai garden. I've tried it both ways dozens of times. I say potting soil, but what I use is a big mix of leftover bonsai soil, composted pine bark WITH fines, the fines of Napa 8822 and whatever gets sifted out of pine bark fines that go into my normal bonsai soil. Proportions are APPROX. 85-90% organic and 10-15% inorganic ......mainly Napa 8822. Now, I do mostly native trees and some tropicals. Junipers go into my 50/50 bark/8822 mix.

I've also noticed that most trees slow down considerably when put in my 50/50 mix. That is a good thing when a tree is further along and you really don't want explosive growth. Still healthy growth and vigor , just not the crazy growth you see in newly collected trees.

Anyone have similar experiences?

what kind of vessels do you put collected trees in?

 

[Joe Dupre']

They usually go into a cut-down rectangular kitty litter tub...... approx. 8.5" x 10.5". Depth depending on how big the root ball is. That ends up being about twice the depth of the pot that it will eventually go into. Bigger trees will go into the $1.00 plastic wash basins from Walmart. But, I'll use whatever I can find laying around for the first year of growth.

 

[Joe Dupre']

My feeling is that bonsai soil was expressly developed to SLOW DOWN the growth of the tree. After you've spent years ramifying the branches and reducing the leaf size, the last thing you want is explosive new growth with long internodes and large leaves.

When you buy a beautiful tree from most any nursery, that tree has more than likely spent it's whole life in some sort of potting soil. What is the first thing people want to do? Get the tree out of that "nasty" nursery soil........the very soil that got the tree in the excellent condition that made you want to buy it. Now, you would want to start working and reducing the roots to fit into a bonsai pot and start developing the nebari, but that all can still be done in potting soil..........maybe even better than in bonsai soil.

I've collected well over 100 trees from the wild, potted them this way and have lost VERY few using this method, so I know it works. Many times these trees could pass for finished bonsai from 20 ft away in their first summer after collection.

 

[BrianBay9]

I think this probably depends on what species you're collecting. I'm assuming most of your collected trees are deciduous - BC, elms, hackberry and the like - used to more moisture and richer soil? Most of what I've collected (Ponderosa pine, lodgepole pine, California live oaks) growing in decomposed granite, coarse sandy soil, or other wise drier and poorer soil. Do you think we'd be better off trying to more closely mimic their natural growing conditions immediately after collection?

 

[penumbra]

Straight out of the woods my collected plants, both pines and deciduous go into augmented pro mix type soil. I almost always add bark and sometimes add turface, grit or anything handy, but it is mostly pro mix and bark. Collected about a dozen this year and all are doing well.

 

[Clicio]

...augmented pro mix type soil.

Humm...
Could you describe what components go into this so called promix soil ?
Not APL, right?

 

[penumbra]

Humm...
Could you describe what components go into this so called promix soil ?
Not APL, right?

Pro mix is one of several professional grower mixes that is made primarily with peat moss and perlite. I always use added bark for container plants. I always use added perlite or Napa 8822 for seedling mix. I have personally used Pro mix and its like products for well over 40 years.
I would never dream of using it for developing bonsai but use it all the time for growing on young plants and for collected plants. Basically thins that will be re-potted in a year to maybe 3 years.

 

[Clicio]

Pro mix is one of several professional grower mixes that is made primarily with peat moss and perlite.

Ah thanks a lot, I see. It's a brand.
I have been using a similar mix - perlite, peat moss and pine bark for saplings, it works well. I don't like perlite's weight and density, it keeps floating when watered, but plants seem to love it.
For established bonsai I am using akadama, crushed bricks and a high percentage of organics in my mix. It's impossible to find pumice in Brazil, and the heat means the soil must be much more water retentive than in temperate regions. So my organic mix has pine bark, peat, some crushed charcoal, black nursery soil an some DE.
It's working well in my climate.

 

[Colorado Josh]

I started getting positive results with using pumice, pine bark, and a little bit of potting soil when collecting sagebrush this spring. It is the only mix that I am able to keep the things alive with.

For ponderosa and juniper, I am using pumice and pine bark 75/25. I live in southwest Colorado where it tends to get hot as balls!

 

[Glorfindel]

Straight out of the woods my collected plants, both pines and deciduous go into augmented pro mix type soil. I almost always add bark and sometimes add turface, grit or anything handy, but it is mostly pro mix and bark. Collected about a dozen this year and all are doing well.

what size bark do you use?

 

[Glorfindel]

Pro mix is one of several professional grower mixes that is made primarily with peat moss and perlite. I always use added bark for container plants. I always use added perlite or Napa 8822 for seedling mix. I have personally used Pro mix and its like products for well over 40 years.
I would never dream of using it for developing bonsai but use it all the time for growing on young plants and for collected plants. Basically thins that will be re-potted in a year to maybe 3 years.

what size bark do you use?

 

[Warlock]

what size bark do you use?

I use this brand.. $6.99 bag in Austin But found it in next small town over for $3.69. I got 18 gallons out of one bag


This what I just used for some collected trees
5 part Pine Bark, 1 part sphagnum peat moss and 1 part inorganic pumice/haydrite/basalt mix

 

[badatusernames]

Digging through old threads because I knew this subject had to have been covered before...

I was curious if folks would use this same sort of perlite / pine bark mix for cuttings or trees in development (not fresh out of the ground), or if you have a different mix you'd use for cuttings and trees in development than you would for collected trees. I think this thread has put me in the right direction for collected trees.

I saw this from @Eric Schrader and it sounds like perlite and cocoa fiber is a winner for black pines...

starting to think about what I want to try to standardize around next year / what experiments I might want to run (probably not many, I like the trees and the pots, the soil I mostly just need to be there and don't care to think about as much) as I know I could be doing better.

 

[TN_Jim]

Digging through old threads because I knew this subject had to have been covered before...

I was curious if folks would use this same sort of perlite / pine bark mix for cuttings or trees in development (not fresh out of the ground), or if you have a different mix you'd use for cuttings and trees in development than you would for collected trees. I think this thread has put me in the right direction for collected trees.

I saw this from @Eric Schrader and it sounds like perlite and cocoa fiber is a winner for black pines...

starting to think about what I want to try to standardize around next year / what experiments I might want to run (probably not many, I like the trees and the pots, the soil I mostly just need to be there and don't care to think about as much) as I know I could be doing better.

Interesting video and experiment. The results speak for themselves as stated.

However, to pose a question from a scientific prospective rather than just devil’s advocate, you stated that they were grown under the same conditions. Is this the same exact water regime, or in accord with some tested consistency of homogeneous water retention across all samples?

I have found myself with a sizable array of plants in all different kinds of soils, and they all have very specific differing watering needs -when cared for individually based on said soil based requirements they seem to preform relatively the same. Some need watered every day, some almost rarely if have had rain.

I know your not trying to publish a paper on this but the methodology of soil moisture and water regime is pertinent.

Thanks for sharing your findings, good things.

 

[Arlithrien]

I saw this from @Eric Schrader and it sounds like perlite and cocoa fiber is a winner for black pines...

starting to think about what I want to try to standardize around next year / what experiments I might want to run (probably not many, I like the trees and the pots, the soil I mostly just need to be there and don't care to think about as much) as I know I could be doing better.

Wow 500 trees. This is exactly the kind of experiments we need to further soil science. I wont be using perlite because I hate the stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

Anyone know where to source those 6 inch net pots? edit: found them https://www.chewy.com/cobalt-aquatics-round-pond-planter/dp/326261

 

[penumbra]

Anyone know where to source those 6 inch net pots? edit: found them https://www.chewy.com/cobalt-aquatics-round-pond-planter/dp/326261

That is a really good price for those pond baskets.

 

[Eric Schrader]

The pond baskets I use are available on Ebay - search "finofil".

@TN_Jim has a good point. And I've been thinking of the results myself. I have a couple thousand in 2" containers also with various soils. The perlite/coco won out there also. But, the watering is a critical question.

E.g. Did the perlite/coco win out because it retains more water and we let all the trees dry down, meaning the 1:1:1 APL was too dry?
Also not mentioned in the video (seriously I could talk for hours about this) is the root aphid situation. Did the root aphid attacks give an advantage to the perlite for some unknown reason? E.g. are root aphids preferentially attacking trees in APL or in just pumice bark?

Empirically, I believe that the perlite/coco as long as the fines are not too prevalent, is a better mix for seedlings. 1:1:1 APL is not meant for turbo growth - it's meant for slow and steady old bonsai growth. Hence it makes sense it's not the best for young trees. I was surprised that the pumice didn't perform better. But I'm not giving up on it yet.

One other thing - There was a much stronger correlation to container size and shape affecting growth than to soil type affecting growth. Best container we used? Lol....stay tuned to my YouTube channel!