Potting up

[Catclow]

Hello, I live in North Alabama and have only been immersing myself in bonsai for about 3 years or so. In the very beginning, I somewhat foolishly purchased a Trident Maple forest from an online mass-producer of bonsai trees. It remains very vigorous after the few years I've had it. It is the only mass-produced, big box-bought tree in my collection, and I want to do something with it that will make it more of my own work of art. All I've done up to now is prune, feed & water, and add moss. I have considered repotting and creating a clump style over the coming years (there are 7 saplings, currently equally spaced and growing straight up.) I have not repotted the forest planting since having it. I have also considered potting them up separately and growing them much larger as practice trees. I cannot find any information in 3 years of searching, learning, reading, about taking a tree from "bonsai soil" like the coarse, inorganic mix they are in now, and planting it in a larger pot in a more organic substrate in an effort to encourage overall growth. Is this something that can be done? Or will moving the young trees from a coarse inorganic to an organic soil kill them? The other part of the question is about potting up...can I take a tree from a shallow tray and plant it into a larger deeper planter in that more organic soil in an effort to encourage growth? Thanks, and please be kind! Also, any specific recommendations for that organic mix if this is something that can be done?

 

[Tieball]

What growth are you talking about specifically? Trunks?

Some recommend using mostly organic....@Forsoothe! is one member in particular. And there are others. His thorough explanations and experience will get you thinking. You might research the soil and substrate discussions here on Bonsainut (there are many) and read about soil components @Forsoothe! and others use. Also read about growth results using inorganic. Keep your options open. Read through organic versus inorganic. I doubt it’s the mix that has not produced the growth you want....it’s the container.

Find this posting below. This is a good starting point. There are many more too. This may begin to address your questions around inorganic and organic.

Check this Recent thread for starters:
What is your favorite soil to use and why?

• Thread starterBonsaiSniper
• Start dateFeb 6, 2020

Just saying: If your objective is growth...trunk thickness. I doubt Tridents will ever grow significantly in a shallow pot, whether using organic or inorganic. You have seven sticks in a shallow pot. They need to grow more freely....unrestricted....especially if your objective is increasing trunk diameters.

Thats my opinion. Check the soil or substrate threads to learn a lot more. My trees grow much faster and more healthy in mostly a coarse inorganic. I’ve done the opposite of what you’re trying to do. I use a combination of both (inorganic and small chipped pine bark). You may find combinations quite common. There's lots of favorite mixes. Have fun reading through the maze.

Your identity doesn’t say where you are located. You should add a general location and zone. It will be helpful.

 

[Forsoothe!]

This group is a reasonably nice bunch, with good bones and happily growing. In 5 to ten years you will have reduced the foliage size, and grown the canopy tighter and the trunks will have grown bigger while still in relatively close association. Stop thinking about recombobulating something which already has a head start on nothing. If you want to start from nothing, again, do it with trees the size you want to start with. One more thing: if you think you can get bigger trees close together without butchering their roots and setting them back a few years, forget about it. There is a price to be paid for everything, and if there really was a way to beat the odds and make a mature this or that overnight, none of us would be here. Here's your forest a dog's age hence with reasonable care, from which you will learn enough to make a bigger, older one, if you want to do so...

When puppy has grey hair your forest will be mature, too.

 

[Catclow]

Hello, I live in North Alabama and have only been immersing myself in bonsai for about 3 years or so. In the very beginning, I somewhat foolishly purchased a Trident Maple forest from an online mass-producer of bonsai trees. It remains very vigorous after the few years I've had it. It is the only mass-produced, big box-bought tree in my collection, and I want to do something with it that will make it more of my own work of art. All I've done up to now is prune, feed & water, and add moss. I have considered repotting and creating a clump style over the coming years (there are 7 saplings, currently equally spaced and growing straight up.) I have not repotted the forest planting since having it. I have also considered potting them up separately and growing them much larger as practice trees. I cannot find any information in 3 years of searching, learning, reading, about taking a tree from "bonsai soil" like the coarse, inorganic mix they are in now, and planting it in a larger pot in a more organic substrate in an effort to encourage overall growth. Is this something that can be done? Or will moving the young trees from a coarse inorganic to an organic soil kill them? The other part of the question is about potting up...can I take a tree from a shallow tray and plant it into a larger deeper planter in that more organic soil in an effort to encourage growth? Thanks, and please be kind! Also, any specific recommendations for that organic mix if this is something that can be done?

What growth are you talking about specifically? Trunks?

Some recommend using mostly organic....@Forsoothe! is one member in particular. And there are others. His thorough explanations and experience will get you thinking. You might research the soil and substrate discussions here on Bonsainut (there are many) and read about soil components @Forsoothe! and others use. Also read about growth results using inorganic. Keep your options open. Read through organic versus inorganic. I doubt it’s the mix that has not produced the growth you want....it’s the container.

Find this posting below. This is a good starting point. There are many more too. This may begin to address your questions around inorganic and organic.

Check this Recent thread for starters:
What is your favorite soil to use and why?

• Thread starterBonsaiSniper
• Start dateFeb 6, 2020

Just saying: If your objective is growth...trunk thickness. I doubt Tridents will ever grow significantly in a shallow pot, whether using organic or inorganic. You have seven sticks in a shallow pot. They need to grow more freely....unrestricted....especially if your objective is increasing trunk diameters.

Thats my opinion. Check the soil or substrate threads to learn a lot more. My trees grow much faster and more healthy in mostly a coarse inorganic. I’ve done the opposite of what you’re trying to do. I use a combination of both (inorganic and small chipped pine bark). You may find combinations quite common. There's lots of favorite mixes. Have fun reading through the maze.

Your identity doesn’t say where you are located. You should add a general location and zone. It will be helpful.

What growth are you talking about specifically? Trunks?

Some recommend using mostly organic....@Forsoothe! is one member in particular. And there are others. His thorough explanations and experience will get you thinking. You might research the soil and substrate discussions here on Bonsainut (there are many) and read about soil components @Forsoothe! and others use. Also read about growth results using inorganic. Keep your options open. Read through organic versus inorganic. I doubt it’s the mix that has not produced the growth you want....it’s the container.

Find this posting below. This is a good starting point. There are many more too. This may begin to address your questions around inorganic and organic.

Check this Recent thread for starters:
What is your favorite soil to use and why?

• Thread starterBonsaiSniper
• Start dateFeb 6, 2020

Just saying: If your objective is growth...trunk thickness. I doubt Tridents will ever grow significantly in a shallow pot, whether using organic or inorganic. You have seven sticks in a shallow pot. They need to grow more freely....unrestricted....especially if your objective is increasing trunk diameters.

Thats my opinion. Check the soil or substrate threads to learn a lot more. My trees grow much faster and more healthy in mostly a coarse inorganic. I’ve done the opposite of what you’re trying to do. I use a combination of both (inorganic and small chipped pine bark). You may find combinations quite common. There's lots of favorite mixes. Have fun reading through the maze.

Your identity doesn’t say where you are located. You should add a general location and zone. It will be helpful.

Thank you for the recommendations! I’m excited to dig in to those threads, and I also will be on the hunt for a larger pot. Maybe you can help me with adding my location to my profile! I have been trying to figure it out ever since I joined. It seems like it would be so simple, but for the life of me I can’t figure it out! How do I do this?

 

[Catclow]

This group is a reasonably nice bunch, with good bones and happily growing. In 5 to ten years you will have reduced the foliage size, and grown the canopy tighter and the trunks will have grown bigger while still in relatively close association. Stop thinking about recombobulating something which already has a head start on nothing. If you want to start from nothing, again, do it with trees the size you want to start with. One more thing: if you think you can get bigger trees close together without butchering their roots and setting them back a few years, forget about it. There is a price to be paid for everything, and if there really was a way to beat the odds and make a mature this or that overnight, none of us would be here. Here's your forest a dog's age hence with reasonable care, from which you will learn enough to make a bigger, older one, if you want to do so...
View attachment 297724
When puppy has grey hair your forest will be mature, too.

I LOVE this! Thank you for taking time to respond and for this very neat simulation! How cool. It actually really puts things in perspective...not just talking about the trees. Regarding your advice about the trees, I find it to be great wisdom you’ve shared. I’ve had these images in mind of what I think I want them to look like, but maybe just enjoying their growth and maturing over the years to come is enough for now ...although I might move them to a larger pot. I read another thread awhile ago where someone said that in warm climates, like where I am (north Alabama) it’s safe to repot maples in late spring. Is this advisable? ( I wouldn’t do a lot to the roots, more so just to give them some room to thicken trunks. )

 

[Alcam]

I'm with Forsoothe! on going with what you got.

Question for you, tho, when do you tend to prune these?

I could be wrong (please someone correct me, if so), but I'd say just fertilize it heavy this year and let it grow like crazy. Don't prune and don't repot it right now, and let it gain so much energy and growth this year that come late fall all that energy will transfer into the vascular tissue, which will help a lot in thickening your trunks. Prune when the leaves begin to fall. Then repot next spring in a slightly bigger bonsai pot before bud break and do it all over again.

 

[Catclow]

I'm with Forsoothe! on going with what you got.

Question for you, tho, when do you tend to prune these?

I could be wrong (please someone correct me, if so), but I'd say just fertilize it heavy this year and let it grow like crazy. Don't prune and don't repot it right now, and let it gain so much energy and growth this year that come late fall all that energy will transfer into the vascular tissue, which will help a lot in thickening your trunks. Prune when the leaves begin to fall. Then repot next spring in a slightly bigger bonsai pot before bud break and do it all over again.

Wow. Thanks. Until now I’ve been pruning a couple of times from late spring to mid-late summer. This was my first bonsai tree(s) and I was pretty adventurous with pruning the first year or so after acquiring it. I have since learned so much (that I now know how little I know!) about pruning different species. But for some reason with this little forest, I am tempted to prune all throughout the growing season (in Alabama that’s spring + summer). All of my other trees, not so much. Thanks for your advice, I’ll let my little forest become a well-fed hippie forest (after my own heart) for the next year and revisit the repotting question next year.

 

[Alcam]

Wow. Thanks. Until now I’ve been pruning a couple of times from late spring to mid-late summer. This was my first bonsai tree(s) and I was pretty adventurous with pruning the first year or so after acquiring it. I have since learned so much (that I now know how little I know!) about pruning different species. But for some reason with this little forest, I am tempted to prune all throughout the growing season (in Alabama that’s spring + summer). All of my other trees, not so much. Thanks for your advice, I’ll let my little forest become a well-fed hippie forest (after my own heart) for the next year and revisit the repotting question next year.

Oh, man, I'm in the same situation being new. Bonsai Mirai, if you haven't watched Ryan before. You'll learn a ton on the horticultural side of what's going on with them. He helps so much.

But that'll definitely be why you're not experiencing too much thickening. Throughout the growing seasons its leaves are photosynthesizing and moving all that water through to grow its leaves so that it can gain energy, grow, and get ready for winter. Once fall comes and the leaves start to change colour, all that energy it has created throughout the growing seasons is going into its vascular system to store it for winter, so each time you prune it when it has leaves you're taking energy away from them, thus less energy into its VS, thus less thickening. Letting it grow like crazy and not pruning it will create a ton of energy, and then it'll all get transferred inwards and you'll see it thicken way more than you ever have.

It's best to prune deciduous late fall, though, because you won't take energy away from the trees, and the best time to prune it is when the leaf colour has changed and the leaves start to get crispy and you can easily take them all off. If you wait until they all fall off on their own, you've probably waited too long.

For the repot, it might live if you do it late spring, but there's always the risk of stressing it out at the wrong time because then you're really banking on a second or third flush of foliage to gain enough energy into the vascular for winter, so it may not (it may also live a few years in a row doing that, but likely the energy will get too depleted and it'll die sooner rather than later). Best to do it early spring before bud break because then all the crazy amount of energy you stored from this year will push out and you'll be very happy

 

[Forsoothe!]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Alcam has one way, and should follow Walter Pall and get a feel for his Hedge Pruning which is a 2nd way. Here's a 3rd way: Image a canopy your finished height and shape. Anything that protrudes is immediately clipped including buds pointed beyond your imaginary outline. That will encourage more back-budding on the interior. Once a year, after the new canopy has emerged and matured, remove all the leaves by cutting them off at the base of the leaf, leaving the petiole, May 1st, or so for you. That will reduce the leaf size when the new 2nd canopy has replaced the 1st. Continue to clip anything that threatens to break that imaginary canopy line. In Oct or Nov when all the leaves are off you can edit the interior to clean up crossing branches and clusters of branches that are too dense to keep the interior more or less empty while still encouraging an opaque canopy.

This is different from the grow, chop, grow, chop method. The theory being that by removing leaves continuously that don't fit your profile instead of removing wood, you build in taper. Exactly which method grows more wood is debatable. If taper is more desirable, and improving at a constant pace where the trees always look pretty good rather than herky-jerky chop & grow, then that's a choice you make, one way or the other. There are other combinations of processes, too

 

[Alcam]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Alcam has one way, and should follow Walter Pall and get a feel for his Hedge Pruning which is a 2nd way. Here's a 3rd way: Image a canopy your finished height and shape. Anything that protrudes is immediately clipped including buds pointed beyond your imaginary outline. That will encourage more back-budding on the interior. Once a year, after the new canopy has emerged and matured, remove all the leaves by cutting them off at the base of the leaf, leaving the petiole, May 1st, or so for you. That will reduce the leaf size when the new 2nd canopy has replaced the 1st. Continue to clip anything that threatens to break that imaginary canopy line. In Oct or Nov when all the leaves are off you can edit the interior to clean up crossing branches and clusters of branches that are too dense to keep the interior more or less empty while still encouraging an opaque canopy.

This is different from the grow, chop, grow, chop method. The theory being that by removing leaves continuously that don't fit your profile instead of removing wood, you build in taper. Exactly which method grows more wood is debatable. If taper is more desirable, and improving at a constant pace where the trees always look pretty good rather than herky-jerky chop & grow, then that's a choice you make, one way or the other. There are other combinations of processes, too

Wouldn't defoliation of the leaves every year after first flush over time reduce the tree's energy to the point where it'll die, or at least put it at risk for an eventual death?

I think it definitely comes down to the desired goal. I know I prefer a slower, more natural growth compared to the grow and "chop", but considering how young the trees are and OP's desire for thickening, I think it makes more sense that having bigger leaves and more vigor means more energy going into the vascular tissue each year, rather than having smaller refined leaf size - which is more of an end goal, anyways - so in theory it would thicken quite a lot quicker by doing the grow, prune, grow, prune approach (chop sounds a little too hyperbolic for me, haha).

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Wouldn't defoliation of the leaves every year after first flush over time reduce the tree's energy to the point where it'll die, or at least put it at risk for an eventual death?

I believe the effects of weakness are very visible, at which point defoliation shouldn't be done anymore.

 

[Tieball]

Maybe you can help me with adding my location to my profile! I have been trying to figure it out ever since I joined. It seems like it would be so simple, but for the life of me I can’t figure it out! How do I do this?

Okay. Here’s where to add your location and zone...and other items if you wish. I work on an iPad so references to a location could vary. At the top portion of this site is a row of icons. Click on your icon. My icon would be the Tieball photo. When you open that icon you'll see several word categories. Click on the one that says ....Your Location. When there, fill in the information you want to be seen or known. That’s it. There are other things you can do or see from that icon link also. Explore. Here’s a photo to reference the icon location to start.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Wouldn't defoliation of the leaves every year after first flush over time reduce the tree's energy to the point where it'll die, or at least put it at risk for an eventual death?

I think it definitely comes down to the desired goal. I know I prefer a slower, more natural growth compared to the grow and "chop", but considering how young the trees are and OP's desire for thickening, I think it makes more sense that having bigger leaves and more vigor means more energy going into the vascular tissue each year, rather than having smaller refined leaf size - which is more of an end goal, anyways - so in theory it would thicken quite a lot quicker by doing the grow, prune, grow, prune approach (chop sounds a little too hyperbolic for me, haha).

The trees are rangy and leggy because they are not growing in a controlled fashion, they are essentially let growing wild, not weakly. Maples can be headed back more than any other non-tropical genus, IMHO. The amount of "tree" being actually being removed by one method verses the other is probably a trade-off, even if all you want is trunk thickening. This is not a method intended to grow big, it is intended to grow proportionally. If you want big, buy big stock, field grown or otherwise which cannot be compared to what grows in a pot, especially a bonsai pot. I have a visceral response to chopped trees of any description and an affection for the kind of ramification that results from the process as I describe it, especially as compared to the kind of canopy that is, to me, hideous in winter silhouette. I do not admire helmets. I want ramification as a distinct feature that is attrative when I look under the lady's skirt I want to see graceful structure, summer or winter. There are NO graceful chops out there in bonsai wannabeland. You pays your money and you takes your choices.

I will be admiring my trees from early on to every day after the first few years because they spend their time maturing, much like an athlete that remains in beautiful proportion, growing from a young kid into a giant football lineman. Would it be better to pork him up and put him on a crash diet in every off-season? I don't think so. (Please forgive a grievous misuse of analogy...)

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

I gotta go back and read all this!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

For me, the "rule", branches thick at the bottom of the tree, getting thinner on the way up, is one of the more important "rules" to follow.

It is hard to keep any one tree from being overly heavy on the top.

In a forest, as here, when neighboring trees are also shading lower branches, I believe you have to partially defoliate, since it's the only action that both removes vigor, and Doesn't stimulate backbudding.

This is important because if you are constantly pruning at the top, it will be that much more ramified (more growing tips) than the bottom, also creating imbalance. Visual design imbalance, as well as health.

Pruning the tops, should be done with this in mind. Where you cut the bottoms to a fork of 2, the tops should be cut back to one, even smaller bud, essentially restarting the Apex 2 or 3 times in a season. Or making it so there is no Apex, until the bottoms are "ready" for their Apex.

I believe building branches should be even more attentive than described.... anywhere.

Sorce

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I LOVE this! Thank you for taking time to respond and for this very neat simulation! How cool. It actually really puts things in perspective...not just talking about the trees. Regarding your advice about the trees, I find it to be great wisdom you’ve shared. I’ve had these images in mind of what I think I want them to look like, but maybe just enjoying their growth and maturing over the years to come is enough for now ...although I might move them to a larger pot. I read another thread awhile ago where someone said that in warm climates, like where I am (north Alabama) it’s safe to repot maples in late spring. Is this advisable? ( I wouldn’t do a lot to the roots, more so just to give them some room to thicken trunks. )

I live in Birmingham, Al. Don't repot now. If your concerned that the soil your using now is limiting growth, you can carefully "up pot" and leave them until you can safely repot and root prune next late February.

 

[Catclow]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Alcam has one way, and should follow Walter Pall and get a feel for his Hedge Pruning which is a 2nd way. Here's a 3rd way: Image a canopy your finished height and shape. Anything that protrudes is immediately clipped including buds pointed beyond your imaginary outline. That will encourage more back-budding on the interior. Once a year, after the new canopy has emerged and matured, remove all the leaves by cutting them off at the base of the leaf, leaving the petiole, May 1st, or so for you. That will reduce the leaf size when the new 2nd canopy has replaced the 1st. Continue to clip anything that threatens to break that imaginary canopy line. In Oct or Nov when all the leaves are off you can edit the interior to clean up crossing branches and clusters of branches that are too dense to keep the interior more or less empty while still encouraging an opaque canopy.

This is different from the grow, chop, grow, chop method. The theory being that by removing leaves continuously that don't fit your profile instead of removing wood, you build in taper. Exactly which method grows more wood is debatable. If taper is more desirable, and improving at a constant pace where the trees always look pretty good rather than herky-jerky chop & grow, then that's a choice you make, one way or the other. There are other combinations of processes, too

Thank you! That has been my approach for the last 1-2 years. And now I have a few nursery bought Japanese maples and have been doing the same with them (as far as keeping that mental image/canopy shape in mind). My question for you is, when you say around May 1 to clip the leaves at their base leaving the petiole, are you saying to do so to all of the leaves or just the ones I would normally be removing to maintain that canopy in my mind’s eye? By the way, you might be a mind reader. Leaf reduction for my maples has been the theme of my searching for quite some time now. There isn’t any information quite so straight forward as yours, thanks again.

 

[Catclow]

I live in Birmingham, Al. Don't repot now. If your concerned that the soil your using now is limiting growth, you can carefully "up pot" and leave them until you can safely repot and root prune next late February.

Thanks fellow Alabamian, should I keep a similar substrate as the current when I pot up or change it to a more organic mix? I’m predicting you might say keep a similar mix...

 

[Catclow]

For me, the "rule", branches thick at the bottom of the tree, getting thinner on the way up, is one of the more important "rules" to follow.

It is hard to keep any one tree from being overly heavy on the top.

In a forest, as here, when neighboring trees are also shading lower branches, I believe you have to partially defoliate, since it's the only action that both removes vigor, and Doesn't stimulate backbudding.

This is important because if you are constantly pruning at the top, it will be that much more ramified (more growing tips) than the bottom, also creating imbalance. Visual design imbalance, as well as health.

Pruning the tops, should be done with this in mind. Where you cut the bottoms to a fork of 2, the tops should be cut back to one, even smaller bud, essentially restarting the Apex 2 or 3 times in a season. Or making it so there is no Apex, until the bottoms are "ready" for their Apex.

I believe building branches should be even more attentive than described.... anywhere.

Sorce

I am going to be reading and re-reading this for years to come. How deep does the wormhole go? And thank you immensely

 

[Catclow]

Okay. Here’s where to add your location and zone...and other items if you wish. I work on an iPad so references to a location could vary. At the top portion of this site is a row of icons. Click on your icon. My icon would be the Tieball photo. When you open that icon you'll see several word categories. Click on the one that says ....Your Location. When there, fill in the information you want to be seen or known. That’s it. There are other things you can do or see from that icon link also. Explore. Here’s a photo to reference the icon location to start.
View attachment 297780

This is all I see