Pre-Bonsai What is it?

[Vance Wood]

I would like to start a discussion on what people's impressions are as to what constitutes the ubiquitous Pre-Bonsai. This item is mentioned time and again in any number of threads discussing the acquiring of good material for bonsai cultivation. I think, if people participate, we might get some interesting results.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think pre-bonsai is material being grown specifically for use as bonsai. There is a long list of what this entails - root pruning, trunk thickening, trunk shaping, etc. The important point - it is neither regular nursery material that just by luck happens to be good for bonsai, nor is it material from the wild (including peoples' front lawns).

 

[Vance Wood]

I think pre-bonsai is material being grown specifically for use as bonsai. There is a long list of what this entails - root pruning, trunk thickening, trunk shaping, etc. The important point - it is neither regular nursery material that just by luck happens to be good for bonsai, nor is it material from the wild (including peoples' front lawns).

OK---Pre-Bonsai at some point has to have been---not Pre-Bonsai. I am trying to nail down more specifics than those you have listed, which I do not disagree with. At what point does not Pre-Bonsai become Pre-Bonsai?

 

[John Ruger]

I think pre-bonsai ia a loaded term since it implies a higher degree of quality and potentiality that sometimes is and sometimes isn't there. I'd love it if the term was ditched altogether.

 

[Gene Deci]

I think Vance has a good point here. Maybe the only workable definition depends on the intention of the owner - i.e. Pre-bonsai is any plant intended for bonsai which the owner does not yet consider to be a bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think pre-bonsai ia a loaded term since it implies a higher degree of quality and potentiality that sometimes is and sometimes isn't there.

I agree with this as well. However I think you need to call these plants SOMETHING to distinguish them from standard nursery fare. Some pre-bonsai undergoes some pretty significant work before it is offered for sale. The difference between a JBP low graft pre-bonsai and a JBP nursery tree can be substantial.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree with this as well. However I think you need to call these plants SOMETHING to distinguish them from standard nursery fare. Some pre-bonsai undergoes some pretty significant work before it is offered for sale. The difference between a JBP low graft pre-bonsai and a JBP nursery tree can be substantial.

OK, so now we are considering whether a Pre-Bonsai is a tree purchased by a bonsai artist that has been cultivated for re-sale to another bonsai artist/grower? OR are we talking about a tree obtained by a bonsai grower from what ever source, that has been worked on by the bonsai grower for his or her own benefit? Is this now a pre-bonsai, or does it need to have some sort of history to it before the present bonsai owner?

 

[John Ruger]

I agree with this as well. However I think you need to call these plants SOMETHING to distinguish them from standard nursery fare. Some pre-bonsai undergoes some pretty significant work before it is offered for sale. The difference between a JBP low graft pre-bonsai and a JBP nursery tree can be substantial.

Agreed, but the standard between pre-bonsai and nursery stock is determined by the growers/sellers-they can call it whatever they want and it's only the knowledge and experience of the artist that can make the determination as to whether or not it meets his/her standards of bonsai potential.

 

[Vance Wood]

Agreed, but the standard between pre-bonsai and nursery stock is determined by the growers/sellers-they can call it whatever they want and it's only the knowledge and experience of the artist that can make the determination as to whether or not it meets his/her standards of bonsai potential.

Here is the rub with this definition. First of all; you are correct but as is often the case on INTERNET bonsai sites, a beginner is advised to find a "Bonsai Nursery" and buy a "Pre-Bonsai", or order a Pre-Bonsai from some on line dealer, both of good repute, as opposed to going to Mom and Pop's nursery and other things green garden center. When so much advise is handed out to get pre-bonsai how is the beginner, or anyone else for the matter, able to decide what is a pre-bonsai and what is hype?

 

[John Ruger]

I collect old books. 99.99% of the time I have to order them via the internet from sellers here in the U.S. or from overseas. The site that I use is sort of like a mega-site in that it incorporates numerous search engines, it's called AddAll.com. They have a very high standard as to what vendors they permit to sell their books, sort of like a seal of approval. All of the sellers have to belong to the ABAA (Antiquarian Booksellers Assoc. of Amer.) and there are also overseas equivalents. This is really the only way to protect buyers from less than honest sellers. As far as I know, there is nothing similar in the bonsai world. You would almost need something along these lines in order to maintain a higher degree of standards, also there would have to be 100% compliance with honesty in selling. As for the site I mentioned, the sellers are rated by the buyers and unless the seller maintains high standards, he gets kicked off and he can't sell through the site.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I collect old books. 99.99% of the time I have to order them via the internet from sellers here in the U.S. or from overseas. The site that I use is sort of like a mega-site in that it incorporates numerous search engines, it's called AddAll.com. They have a very high standard as to what vendors they permit to sell their books, sort of like a seal of approval. All of the sellers have to belong to the ABAA (Antiquarian Booksellers Assoc. of Amer.) and there are also overseas equivalents. This is really the only way to protect buyers from less than honest sellers. As far as I know, there is nothing similar in the bonsai world. You would almost need something along these lines in order to maintain a higher degree of standards, also there would have to be 100% compliance with honesty in selling. As for the site I mentioned, the sellers are rated by the buyers and unless the seller maintains high standards, he gets kicked off and he can't sell through the site.

This kinda gets back to our previous discussion about poor info on the Internet and whether it would make sense for the better bonsai organizations to have a "seal of approval" or something similar.

 

[jk_lewis]

Drafting a definition like this is a bit like nailing Jello to the wall. Or herding cats -- to add another cliche'.

A nursery tree brought home by (me/anyone) and given some preliminary trimming with the intent that it be a bonsai some day coulod well be called a PRE-bonsai.

I think, however, that the term generally applies to nursery trees that the nursery owner has done some preliminary work on (roots, top, wire, etc.) with the intent of selling the material to a bonsaiest (new or experienced) who will then "finish" it. Or kill it.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I agree with a lot of the definitions here... so all I can add is what makes me use the word pre-bonsai ...

I call it pre-bonsai when I have purchased it from a nurseryman who has grown the material to be used for bonsai.... what does that mean? interestingly most bonsai nurserymen I know are bonsai growers (grafting low themselves...growing material from cuttings etc) ... ie. they apply growing techniques to trees to give them traits that are desirable for bonsai people. This means providing quality healthy root structures that contain lots of fine roots ... building nebari to some extent.... on pines growing lots of low branches and thickening the trunk... on deciduous trees giving the trunk size and taper.... wiring trees to have low curves etc... all of these are traits sought by bonsai people...

now this does not preclude that same nurseryman purchasing a tree from a garden nursery and training to start to have those same traits....

the most important part of the definition that i can think of is... material grown by a nurseryman to have traits desirable to bonsai artists with the intent of selling the material to bonsai artists...

if a regular nursery does this by accident and you buy it from them.... its nursery stock.... and you didn't pay a premium for all the extra work that is required...

 

[Zach Smith]

As a nurseryman I'll weigh in with my opinion. To me pre-bonsai means some type of seletion and preliminary training process that allows the artist to continue guiding the material to its "finished" state, which of course we all know never exactly happens. I would also divide the material into three categories, namely, collected, field-grown and regular nursery stock. This is important because in the case of collected material, the nurseryman is limited in how much and the type of training/guidance that can be done. Trunks are usually set, unless you're chopping or man-handling in the case of needled evergreens. For deciduous trees, more often than not you're regrowing all of the branches which means you have to do some training or they'll get out of hand. For collected needled evergreens, you get what you get and need to keep the trees trimmed and perhaps do some wiring (though not much).

For field-grown trees, you do all of the guiding as the tree grows. For deciduous trees this means chopping and guiding the trunk to create heft and taper, lifting and root-pruning or in-ground root chopping. Branching is grown later on.

For regular nursery material, it's selection for trunk and potential branching, then keeping the material trimmed until it's sold.

For what it's worth.

Zach

 

[Vance Wood]

As a nurseryman I'll weigh in with my opinion. To me pre-bonsai means some type of selection and preliminary training process that allows the artist to continue guiding the material to its "finished" state, which of course we all know never exactly happens. I would also divide the material into three categories, namely, collected, field-grown and regular nursery stock. This is important because in the case of collected material, the nurseryman is limited in how much and the type of training/guidance that can be done. Trunks are usually set, unless you're chopping or man-handling in the case of needled evergreens. For deciduous trees, more often than not you're regrowing all of the branches which means you have to do some training or they'll get out of hand. For collected needled evergreens, you get what you get and need to keep the trees trimmed and perhaps do some wiring (though not much).

For field-grown trees, you do all of the guiding as the tree grows. For deciduous trees this means chopping and guiding the trunk to create heft and taper, lifting and root-pruning or in-ground root chopping. Branching is grown later on.

For regular nursery material, it's selection for trunk and potential branching, then keeping the material trimmed until it's sold.

For what it's worth.

Zach

Does a tree have to have all of the traits you have mentioned to be considered a Pre-Bonsai? If it has only a couple or a few of these traits is it still a Pre-Bonsai or is it something else?

At what point in a tree's development does a tree become a Pre-Bonsai. Also you must consider this. If a tree is sold by a bonsai nursery and has none of these traits imparted upon it by the hands of the nursery grower other than some sort of selection process and, it just happens to be a nice tree any way, and a large price is charged for the tree is it still Pre-Bonsai?

 

[Attila Soos]

Does a tree have to have all of the traits you have mentioned to be considered a Pre-Bonsai? If it has only a couple or a few of these traits is it still a Pre-Bonsai or is it something else?

At what point in a tree's development does a tree become a Pre-Bonsai. Also you must consider this. If a tree is sold by a bonsai nursery and has none of these traits imparted upon it by the hands of the nursery grower other than some sort of selection process and, it just happens to be a nice tree any way, and a large price is charged for the tree is it still Pre-Bonsai?

There is no formula for beig a pre-bonsai. It's subjective.

The point a tree becomes pre-bonsai, is when a bonsaist decides for himself that the material is good enough to work with. This is different for every person. I may be able to see something in a tree, that makes it precious for me. It can be a twist in the lower trunk. A unique feature. Another person may not be able to see that, so for him, it's useless.

An untrained yamadori that I collect is definitely a pre-bonsai for me, since I collected it for specific reasons (bark, trunk, deadwood, whatever). It may not be interesting for others. For me, it is pre-bonsai. For the next guy, it's not.

I don't care whether or not the features that make a material unique for me, were made by man or nature. The tree could grow in a nursery can and develop some nice features by itself, without being bonsai-trained. Or it may have gone through some initial pruning and wiring. It's all the same for me, it's pre-bonsai. It can also have many attractive features, or just a single one, in my eye. It is still pre-bonsai to me.

So, one cannot take out the subjective aspect of calling something a pre-bonsai. Just like calling art something, may be subjective. Sometimes, it is obvious to the whole world that something is pre-bonsai. It has many great features, but it is still raw. So, it's a no-brainer. Just like many works of art look art for everybody. Other times, a tree may have features that are hidden to most of us, but a few with great imagination. To those, it's pre-bonsai just the same, but not to the rest of us. There is no rule to it. It's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Zach Smith]

Does a tree have to have all of the traits you have mentioned to be considered a Pre-Bonsai? If it has only a couple or a few of these traits is it still a Pre-Bonsai or is it something else?

At what point in a tree's development does a tree become a Pre-Bonsai. Also you must consider this. If a tree is sold by a bonsai nursery and has none of these traits imparted upon it by the hands of the nursery grower other than some sort of selection process and, it just happens to be a nice tree any way, and a large price is charged for the tree is it still Pre-Bonsai?

It depends on the individual tree. For example, if I collect a phenomenal "stump" and someone wants to buy it before the new shoots are even long enough to wire, what should I call it? I'm thinking it would qualify as a pre-bonsai, though the price would reflect the fact that little development had occurred at that time. If I worked on this stump for a few years and created a nice basic branch structure but the tree had a long way to go, it would cost more but still be a pre-bonsai. I don't know how much value there is in arguing the semantics of a situation like this one, but in reality trees tend to go out at all stages of development from that point where they originate from the wild or the ground. The differences are reflected in the desires of the buyers and the costs of the trees.

Zach

 

[Vance Wood]

It depends on the individual tree. For example, if I collect a phenomenal "stump" and someone wants to buy it before the new shoots are even long enough to wire, what should I call it? I'm thinking it would qualify as a pre-bonsai, though the price would reflect the fact that little development had occurred at that time. If I worked on this stump for a few years and created a nice basic branch structure but the tree had a long way to go, it would cost more but still be a pre-bonsai. I don't know how much value there is in arguing the semantics of a situation like this one, but in reality trees tend to go out at all stages of development from that point where they originate from the wild or the ground. The differences are reflected in the desires of the buyers and the costs of the trees.

Zach

I think now we are starting to get down to the crux of the matter. There seems to be two things that I have garnered through this so far.

#1: A pre-bonsai must be started down it's road to being a bonsai by someone else, not yourself.
#2: A pre-bonsai must, because of the perceived work done on it so far, cost substantially more than the same tree collected from a nursery.

Here is another question, just toconfuse things a bit. From what source must a tree be obtained by a grower that markets Pre-Bonsai; from seed, cuttings, yamadori, air layers, growers that cultivate young trees for the nursery trade called seedlings or liners? What magical things must take place for this material to be a;----and dare I say it; A Pre-Pre-Bonsai?

 

[Brian Underwood]

I always considered a "Pre-Bonsai" to be a piece of plant material that can be "Finished" in a certain amount of time, say 5 years or less. All the preliminary work has been done, the tree has some age, trunk girth, trunk movement, basically it has a desirable trunk

 

[Vance Wood]

I always considered a "Pre-Bonsai" to be a piece of plant material that can be "Finished" in a certain amount of time, say 5 years or less. All the preliminary work has been done, the tree has some age, trunk girth, trunk movement, basically it has a desirable trunk

So you are saying that a Pre-Bonsai is just short of a finished tree? Five years is nothing in the development of a tree. Would you put five years or less as the major parameter? What would you call a tree grown by the same grower that will take more than five years to develop, even though he/she may have put a number of years worth of work into it? A nursery tree? Incidentally that particular term seems to be the kiss of death in some circles.