Preferred Oaks

[W3rk]

Aside from Quercus Robur/English Oak and some of the varieties of Live Oak, what are other Oaks that work well for Bonsai? Locally it looks like one of my better options may be White Oak/Swamp White Oak but I've seen mixed reviews at best. I've seen varieties maybe like Emory Oak that seem similar to LIve Oak but should be more cold hardy.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Aside from Quercus Robur/English Oak and some of the varieties of Live Oak, what are other Oaks that work well for Bonsai? Locally it looks like one of my better options may be White Oak/Swamp White Oak but I've seen mixed reviews at best. I've seen varieties maybe like Emory Oak that seem similar to LIve Oak but should be more cold hardy.

What’s your location?

 

[Mikecheck123]

They're probably hard to find outside of California, but blue oaks (q. douglasii) have really tiny leaves and a very interesting color.

 

[Woocash]

Quercus Ilex, Suber and Cerris (holm oak, cork oak and turkey oak) all seem to have pretty good examples too.

 

[Tieball]

I’m not sure exactly.....but I believe the blue oaks grow in Colorado too....the Colorado Springs area. If not the blue oak...then an oak nearly identical. In the dry areas it seemed to grow more bush like than tall....I suspected that was because of the altitude and the dryness. Perhaps there is a Colorado member here that knows more about those oaks...if they are in fact oaks.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I’m not sure exactly.....but I believe the blue oaks grow in Colorado too....the Colorado Springs area. If not the blue oak...then an oak nearly identical. In the dry areas it seemed to grow more bush like than tall....I suspected that was because of the altitude and the dryness. Perhaps there is a Colorado member here that knows more about those oaks...if they are in fact oaks.

Are you thinking of the Gambel oak (q. gambelii)? That's the shrubby oak of the Rockies. Blue oaks are only found in California.

 

[ConorDash]

I have a quercus Faginea, Portuguese oak. As to whether it’s overly well suited to Bonsai, not sure but it’s fairly commonly mentioned as Bonsai.
Mauro Stemberger is a lover of oaks and a professional. I’d take his advice on oaks.

 

[arcina]

Aside from Quercus Robur/English Oak and some of the varieties of Live Oak, what are other Oaks that work well for Bonsai? Locally it looks like one of my better options may be White Oak/Swamp White Oak but I've seen mixed reviews at best. I've seen varieties maybe like Emory Oak that seem similar to LIve Oak but should be more cold hardy.

I have been working with Gray Oak and Silverleaf oak. They are really strong and handle cold weather really well. Sergio Cuan has been working in a big one.

 

[penumbra]

What about the Canyon Live Oak? Various sources list it as zone 5 through zone 8. I am also interested in oaks, particularly the evergreen oaks of CA. What is best way to winter them in zone 6?

 

[Mikecheck123]

What about the Canyon Live Oak? Various sources list it as zone 5 through zone 8. I am also interested in oaks, particularly the evergreen oaks of CA. What is best way to winter them in zone 6?

I have a nice little canyon live shohin that I'm excited about. The leaf spines are absolutely deadly and make holly seem tame.

I have no experience trying to winter one in a cold zone.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I have been working with Gray Oak and Silverleaf oak. They are really strong and handle cold weather really well. Sergio Cuan has been working in a big one.

I've heard a lot about gray oaks from seemingly multiple people. But maybe they were all you!

 

[Mikecheck123]

Canyon live oak

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If you can keep the roots from freezing in winter, the Mediterranean Cork Oak, Quercus suber, has the most interesting bark. It develops bark fairly young, making for a tree that can look older than it is.

My limited experience with the California oaks in the humid summer, cold winter Midwest, is they are not well adapted to our climate. I lost a couple to disease in summer, before they had a chance to expire in my cold winter. I lost other trials during various failures during winter. Have not attempted any in the last 10 years, but tried a bunch about 15 - 20 years ago.

I currently have a bur oak seedling, Quercus macrocarpa, and have some hope for it. While in whip state, no branches, Leaves are HUGE, but don't panic, they reduce nicely as you develop ramification. Bur oak is in the white oak - live oak family, will hybridize with the live oaks. It has a very coarse bark, which is the reason I chose it as a test subject. It also is extremely cold hardy. If you collect specimens of your local land race, you can be guaranteed good winter hardiness. Or get seedlings from areas colder than your own, and you will have a tree you can leave out without protection beyond setting it on the ground all winter. Their range is huge, from northern Florida to the Arctic Circle, from the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountains. As I mentioned in my comment about land races, if you can source your tree from an area north of where you are at, you will definitely have a winter hardy tree. In Canada, they are found in USDA zone 3. Even Mike Frary could grow one.

As to bonsai track record of bur oak, I have no documentation other than the 5 years or so of my own growing of a seedling.

I have hear that swamp white oak, Quercus bicolor, is more adaptable to contain growing than other white oaks. It has reasonably coarse bark, not as dramatic as bur oak, but more coarse than red oak or black oak. It might be a good one to try.

Key is it takes a decade or two to get a seedling to have enough age to begin looking tree like. For bonsai purposes, I think it is better to start with collected trunks, especially local to where you live, than to take the decades it would require to bring a seedling up to an acceptable for bonsai caliper trunk. So I think collecting oaks is better time spent than seed raising oaks.

 

[Mikecheck123]

If you can keep the roots from freezing in winter, the Mediterranean Cork Oak, Quercus suber, has the most interesting bark. It develops bark fairly young, making for a tree that can look older than it is.

My limited experience with the California oaks in the humid summer, cold winter Midwest, is they are not well adapted to our climate. I lost a couple to disease in summer, before they had a chance to expire in my cold winter. I lost other trials during various failures during winter. Have not attempted any in the last 10 years, but tried a bunch about 15 - 20 years ago.

I currently have a bur oak seedling, Quercus macrocarpa, and have some hope for it. While in whip state, no branches, Leaves are HUGE, but don't panic, they reduce nicely as you develop ramification. Bur oak is in the white oak - live oak family, will hybridize with the live oaks. It has a very coarse bark, which is the reason I chose it as a test subject. It also is extremely cold hardy. If you collect specimens of your local land race, you can be guaranteed good winter hardiness. Or get seedlings from areas colder than your own, and you will have a tree you can leave out without protection beyond setting it on the ground all winter. Their range is huge, from northern Florida to the Arctic Circle, from the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountains. As I mentioned in my comment about land races, if you can source your tree from an area north of where you are at, you will definitely have a winter hardy tree. In Canada, they are found in USDA zone 3. Even Mike Frary could grow one.

As to bonsai track record of bur oak, I have no documentation other than the 5 years or so of my own growing of a seedling.

I have hear that swamp white oak, Quercus bicolor, is more adaptable to contain growing than other white oaks. It has reasonably coarse bark, not as dramatic as bur oak, but more coarse than red oak or black oak. It might be a good one to try.

Key is it takes a decade or two to get a seedling to have enough age to begin looking tree like. For bonsai purposes, I think it is better to start with collected trunks, especially local to where you live, than to take the decades it would require to bring a seedling up to an acceptable for bonsai caliper trunk. So I think collecting oaks is better time spent than seed raising oaks.

Interesting. I've long wondered why the epic valley oaks of California (the oakiest looking oak trees you ever saw) don't seem to be cultivated anywhere else. Probably can't take the winters or humidity elsewhere.

 

[penumbra]

Thank you so much for the great info Leo. You always come through and are one of bonsaidoms greater assets.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Oak biodiversity is centered in North America, with somewhere over 300 species. In states like Tennessee and Kentucky you may have 20 different species of oaks. In Illinois we have more than 10 species. Obviously the Japanese never had access to try any of them for bonsai until only recently. So the range of possibilities is largely untested for bonsai. I would not limit my choices to only those species that have a track record as bonsai, as there has simply been relatively little effort to "test" the many different species.

So which ones to seek out for bonsai? All oaks have fairly coarse branching structure compared to an elm or hackberry (Celtis). So with pretty much all oaks, the best use would be for medium to larger size bonsai. Trunks are the most important feature of bonsai, the appearance of age to a trunk is largely due to texture of the bark. There is a wide range of bark textures in oaks, and the textures are not limited to one group or another.

Evergreen leaves are a feature that occurs in unrelated families of oaks, but in common name parlance, "Live Oak" refers to any evergreen oak. So the use of the term live oak can be misleading. Most of the California live oaks, Q. agrifolia for example, are in the red oak family, where the southern live oak, Q. virigniana is in the white oak family.

Red oak - black oak group of some 80 to 90 species only found in North America & Central America. They most commonly have a flat plate forming bark, like Quercus rubra, the northern red oak, or Q. velutina, the northern black oak. It becomes rough with age, but not very dramatic until advanced age. There are some species with more coarse bark, there are some like the cherry bark oak, Q. pagoda, that have smooth bark almost like a young cherry tree. Some species of the red oak group have smaller leaves, for example the willow oak, Quercus phellos, water oak, Q. nigra, and myrtle oak, Q. myrtifolia. Others, such as black oak, Q. velutina have pretty large leaves.

The White oak group includes the white oak, Q. alba, swamp white oak, Q. bicolor, and the bur oak, Q. macrocarpa, The group is spread through the northern hemisphere, so it includes the English oak Q. robur, but does not include the cork oak Q. suber. Most of the white oak group develop a fissured bark, often fractured into a pattern of squares. Bur oak has the most dramatic bark of the group, followed closely by the white oak and swamp white oak. Some have fairly smooth bark, but the majority have coarse, fissured bark.

So which to choose? I would get the best trunk you can find. Collected trees are the best in terms of collecting a trunk with bark that indicates age.

As a general rule, oaks from seed take considerably more time to develop than an Elm or Zelkova. As a general rule, they are medium to slow growing trees. It will take more than a decade for seedlings to begin to display mature bark patterns.

Leaf reduction, my limited experience seems to be that all the oaks I have tried, all the leaves will reduce a fair amount. You will probably be able to keep leaf size under 2 inches on a mature, well ramified tree. This includes bur oak. Many oaks, when in youthful vigor, will throw very large leaves, my bur oak had leaves 10 inches (25 cm) long. But the same bur oak "calmed down" to leaves about 2 inches (5 cm) long as ramification increased.

So check out what you can find of your local oak species. There are some unique ones out there. Local will be best adapted to your winters. Or seek out stock from further north (colder) areas, so that you can get away with putting little or no effort into wintering your oaks.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Can you tell? The idea of oaks as bonsai actually has me interested. I just don't get this "fired up" about Ficus.

 

[rockm]

What about the Canyon Live Oak? Various sources list it as zone 5 through zone 8. I am also interested in oaks, particularly the evergreen oaks of CA. What is best way to winter them in zone 6?

Skip the Cali oaks. Same for European cork oak. Too cold and wet here for them. Look to the Midwest and southwest. Species like the grey oak and escarpment live oak are better evergreen candidates for around here.

 

[Big Country Bonsai]

Oak biodiversity is centered in North America, with somewhere over 300 species. In states like Tennessee and Kentucky you may have 20 different species of oaks. In Illinois we have more than 10 species. Obviously the Japanese never had access to try any of them for bonsai until only recently. So the range of possibilities is largely untested for bonsai. I would not limit my choices to only those species that have a track record as bonsai, as there has simply been relatively little effort to "test" the many different species.

So which ones to seek out for bonsai? All oaks have fairly coarse branching structure compared to an elm or hackberry (Celtis). So with pretty much all oaks, the best use would be for medium to larger size bonsai. Trunks are the most important feature of bonsai, the appearance of age to a trunk is largely due to texture of the bark. There is a wide range of bark textures in oaks, and the textures are not limited to one group or another.

Evergreen leaves are a feature that occurs in unrelated families of oaks, but in common name parlance, "Live Oak" refers to any evergreen oak. So the use of the term live oak can be misleading. Most of the California live oaks, Q. agrifolia for example, are in the red oak family, where the southern live oak, Q. virigniana is in the white oak family.

Red oak - black oak group of some 80 to 90 species only found in North America & Central America. They most commonly have a flat plate forming bark, like Quercus rubra, the northern red oak, or Q. velutina, the northern black oak. It becomes rough with age, but not very dramatic until advanced age. There are some species with more coarse bark, there are some like the cherry bark oak, Q. pagoda, that have smooth bark almost like a young cherry tree. Some species of the red oak group have smaller leaves, for example the willow oak, Quercus phellos, water oak, Q. nigra, and myrtle oak, Q. myrtifolia. Others, such as black oak, Q. velutina have pretty large leaves.

The White oak group includes the white oak, Q. alba, swamp white oak, Q. bicolor, and the bur oak, Q. macrocarpa, The group is spread through the northern hemisphere, so it includes the English oak Q. robur, but does not include the cork oak Q. suber. Most of the white oak group develop a fissured bark, often fractured into a pattern of squares. Bur oak has the most dramatic bark of the group, followed closely by the white oak and swamp white oak. Some have fairly smooth bark, but the majority have coarse, fissured bark.

So which to choose? I would get the best trunk you can find. Collected trees are the best in terms of collecting a trunk with bark that indicates age.

As a general rule, oaks from seed take considerably more time to develop than an Elm or Zelkova. As a general rule, they are medium to slow growing trees. It will take more than a decade for seedlings to begin to display mature bark patterns.

Leaf reduction, my limited experience seems to be that all the oaks I have tried, all the leaves will reduce a fair amount. You will probably be able to keep leaf size under 2 inches on a mature, well ramified tree. This includes bur oak. Many oaks, when in youthful vigor, will throw very large leaves, my bur oak had leaves 10 inches (25 cm) long. But the same bur oak "calmed down" to leaves about 2 inches (5 cm) long as ramification increased.

So check out what you can find of your local oak species. There are some unique ones out there. Local will be best adapted to your winters. Or seek out stock from further north (colder) areas, so that you can get away with putting little or no effort into wintering your oaks.

I really enjoy the willingness and enthusiasm you show when sharing info on the Forum Leo! Always here to lend a helping word of advice! I would like to see you Bur oak if you have a picture of it.

I'm with you! I think we have a wonderful opportunity here in North America to develop many species of oak into wonderful bonsai material!

 

[rockm]

One of the best eastern U.S. oaks to work with is the Willow Oak (quercus phellos) It ranges from the upper south down into Texas and deep south. It is pretty cold hardy, typically easier to collect larger trees because of naturally shallow root systems. Leaves can reduce dramatically with diligence. Another is the pin oak (quercus palustris) a more northern species up into the Midwest and western Appalachians.

Zach Smith has been selling nice collected willow oak stock for some time. I've also seen them developed from pretty large (8 inch diameter) nursery stock.

I've seen a couple of nice pin oak bonsai over the years. One was collected off a mine slag heap in West Va.