Pretty Bummed about this one... Elm?

[Johnathan]

Soooo I went to collect junipers / oaks this past weekend. My buddy is on board the ERC can be special train.... I was looking for oaks and ashe or redberry junipers. Surprisingly, came across some interesting trunks on junipers, couldn't determine if they were ERC or what so I passed. Didn't see a single oak (it's a 500 acre property and we were walking)

Almost came away empty handed, but we spotted an elm...

I've heard these could be collected any time of year, unfortunately I was exhausted the space was tight due to some downed broken ERC trunks.... did I say I was exhausted???

Long story short, I ended up barerooting when extracting from the ground....

Back at home I let the tree/ roots soak in some water....



I failed to make sure the tree actually reached the water. I didn't mist the foliage. Absolutely F*****D UP! My wife wanted to do so running around, so it sat in the garage like this for a few hours.

Eventually, as I cleaned it up the trunk and roots made it to water. I tried to chop everything down to just a few leaves to minimize dieback, and potted into 100% NAPA DE. I didn't wash the roots due to the small amount I didnt want to damage them anymore.

Put the tree outside, washing out any left over dust from the DE -yes I sifted- finished just in time for midnight rains.

Sooooooo that was yesterday and today woke up to it still raining. Eventually made my way to the garage and cleaned up my mess from the night before.

Lots chopped off. This isn't even all of it.



This look like an elm to you???



Anyway all cleaned up in the garage and went outside to check on the tree and.....

***(INSERT MULTIPLE OBSCENITIES HERE)***

All of my leaves were brown.








And a close up of the bark for ID help if it's not an elm.



Soooo question time!

Since all the leaves have died, does that mean the tree is dead? I believe I read something somewhere that said if a collected tree drops its leaves then that IS a good sign. It's when the tree holds the leaves that's bad.... anyone else hear that before???

Is this in fact an elm? If so anyone got a positive ID?

Lastly, with the leaves apparently dead, should I cut back all the excessive trunks now? Maybe once I get some duct seal to seal them immediately after cutting???

What do you think???

 

[0soyoung]

You might try closing a big black yard trash bag over it for a few days. It will reduce water loss, but sometimes it will 'sweat' it into budding out. Not in the sun, of course.

If it works, you might think about just popping your deciduous digs into a black plastic trash bag with some damp paper/sphagnum/etc. tying it up tight an letting it sit in the shade at home for a few days (e.g., until the next weekend) before you bother to pot it up.

But to your specific question of whether this one will make it - I dunno.

 

[markyscott]

As with most trees, it’s MUCH safer to collect during dormancy. Try in early spring - I think you’ll have much better luck.

Scott

 

[Saddler]

I don’t think a tree dropping it’s leaves is ever a good sign unless it is autumn and all the trees are doing it.

I have a half dozen, maybe a dozen trees I have found that I have GPSed the location for in season extraction. Some I have pruned branches and some I have root pruned depending on the tree. Some I collect this winter, some I might never get back to it if I have fallen out of love because I have a new love. Trees in the ground usually don’t go far so it is safest to wait and often very benifical if you are thinking ahead.

I hope your tree springs back. Good luck.

 

[Cristian D.]

Maybe sealing the cuts will help it retains more moisture?
Good luck, hope it will come back.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Well, I will say...I transplanted a purple sand cherry shrub out of season...leaves went to toast. I researched and already had my tree replacement to go in its place come the following spring. Since the leaves all dead. I did a hard cut back leaving a round canopy the size one would a bonsai. Yet this was landscape. Just so I didn't see the eye sore as noticeable in the yard. Well...it rejuvenated...and is still thriving. Not your tree...but...this late in the game. my uncle swears fall is a good time to transplant trees. So...I might offer it care until spring and see if it recovers.mlosing the leaves currently...seems not good. But, I would wait it out. Even split wood on the wood pile tries to survive and tosses out branches. Wait to see how this recovers.

Where did you have this outside? In a shaded location of the yard? Please tell me not in direct sun. Especially if this was from a location which was well wooded and in partial shade. If so...leaves might be burnt.

 

[markyscott]

my uncle swears fall is a good time to transplant trees

It’s an excellent time for transplanting, meaning you take a tree from the nursery can and slip it into a hole in the ground. There’s some time for it to get established before winter. It’s not an excellent time to pull a tree, cut off the tap root, cut or damage almost all the rest of the roots, and then remove all the soil. It’s way better to do that in early spring.

That said, elms are tough. Maybe it will bounce back. Don’t cut back any more. The tree will let you know how much will survive, if it does. Then you can start thinking about what to do next.

 

[Cadillactaste]

It’s an excellent time for transplanting, meaning you take a tree from the nursery can and slip it into a hole in the ground. There’s some time for it to get established before winter. It’s not an excellent time to pull a tree, cut off the tap root, cut or damage almost all the rest of the roots, and then remove all the soil. It’s way better to do that in early spring.

That said, elms are tough. Maybe it will bounce back. Don’t cut back any more. The tree will let you know how much will survive, if it does. Then you can start thinking about what to do next.

Ahh... well, he would transplant trees on the farm. Moving from one location to the next. But...yes sir...no harsh treatment of roots. But dug and moved to new locations. Also never in a rush...and always planned out. He never done it in the heat of the day. I moved a dogwood similar to his way of doing things...my dad placed a PVC pipe in the hole and planted it. Watering the roots by watering from the pipe. It too survived the transplant. But I wasn't taking into consideration removal of the tap root. Shame the tree wasn't tagged for a later collection. Being exhausted and not as careful of its root system...concerns me a bit. But..lthat the leaves went brown in what less than 24 hours? I thought possibly burnt by the sun. Even brush from our firewood...takes awhile for the leaves to brown.

 

[rockm]

Soooo I went to collect junipers / oaks this past weekend. My buddy is on board the ERC can be special train.... I was looking for oaks and ashe or redberry junipers. Surprisingly, came across some interesting trunks on junipers, couldn't determine if they were ERC or what so I passed. Didn't see a single oak (it's a 500 acre property and we were walking)

Almost came away empty handed, but we spotted an elm...

I've heard these could be collected any time of year, unfortunately I was exhausted the space was tight due to some downed broken ERC trunks.... did I say I was exhausted???

Long story short, I ended up barerooting when extracting from the ground....

Back at home I let the tree/ roots soak in some water....

View attachment 206735

I failed to make sure the tree actually reached the water. I didn't mist the foliage. Absolutely F*****D UP! My wife wanted to do so running around, so it sat in the garage like this for a few hours.

Eventually, as I cleaned it up the trunk and roots made it to water. I tried to chop everything down to just a few leaves to minimize dieback, and potted into 100% NAPA DE. I didn't wash the roots due to the small amount I didnt want to damage them anymore.

Put the tree outside, washing out any left over dust from the DE -yes I sifted- finished just in time for midnight rains.

Sooooooo that was yesterday and today woke up to it still raining. Eventually made my way to the garage and cleaned up my mess from the night before.

Lots chopped off. This isn't even all of it.

View attachment 206737

This look like an elm to you???

View attachment 206736

Anyway all cleaned up in the garage and went outside to check on the tree and.....

***(INSERT MULTIPLE OBSCENITIES HERE)***

All of my leaves were brown.
View attachment 206739

View attachment 206738

View attachment 206741

View attachment 206740

And a close up of the bark for ID help if it's not an elm.

View attachment 206742

Soooo question time!

Since all the leaves have died, does that mean the tree is dead? I believe I read something somewhere that said if a collected tree drops its leaves then that IS a good sign. It's when the tree holds the leaves that's bad.... anyone else hear that before???

Is this in fact an elm? If so anyone got a positive ID?

Lastly, with the leaves apparently dead, should I cut back all the excessive trunks now? Maybe once I get some duct seal to seal them immediately after cutting???

What do you think???

not to be a bummer, but I think you will probably have a dead elm come spring, if not sooner. Now is not the time to do such heavy collection. I've been forced on a couple of occasions to collect cedar elms out of season. Haven't had any success with any of those.

The processes involved with recovery from fall collection have a hard deadline--the first frost and freezes. Don't know when those average in your area, but I'd look it up.

I would expect your elm might push a new set of leaves in a couple of weeks, but it also might not-- In any case, unless you have a cold greenhouse to overwinter this tree in, it's pretty much doomed. That's because of the processes the tree has to go through to get even a small chance of making it.

The new foliage probably won't harden off enough to be of any benefit for the tree--leaves can provide any nutrients for the plant until after they've gone leather hard..That takes a couple of weeks. That re-leaf and hardening off process pushes this into late September, when most deciduous trees are preparing for winter, storing nutrients in their roots. Since you have removed the majority of this tree's roots and it is pushing new roots before it pushes new leaves -- the tree's resources are stretched thin.

Once in leaf the tree then faces frost and freezes. It will likely not go dormant by dropping its leaves normally. It will most likely be shocked into doing so by the sub freezing weather.

You can minimize all this if you have a frost free place to overwinter it. A dark space like a garage wouldn't work if the tree is in leaf...A cold greenhouse is the most likely place this tree could successfully make the winter...

 

[Johnathan]

Yeah absolutely a P.O.S. collection trip lol

@Cadillactaste its actually on my back porch, getting sun from morning until about 1ish. Sun burnt leaves is definitely a possibility I suppose. I was just very shocked to see them go from green to that in a night/morning. It was in an opening in the woods, but as the first pic shoes there was plenty of foliage to help block the sun from a lot of the tree.

@markyscott I was getting horrible cell signal, but before I dug it I searched the BNut forums and came across a few post where people were saying how hardy elms were so I went for it. It was still a very, very, VERY bad collection trip and even worse practices doing the collection. we were spent. Worried about dehydration after spending from 9am - 3pm out in the farm lands with 1 bottle of water. Definitely not planned out well.

@rockm I may have access to a greenhouse, not sure exactly what a "cold greenhouse" is.

I'm leaning towards what @0soyoung suggested placing it into a big black trash bag and moving it into a shaded corner of the yard which gets no direct sunlight while I check on greenhouse space.

What does everyone think about that idea? Do you guys at least think it was a pretty good trunk? .... was.... smdh

 

[Johnathan]

Instead of the garage should I just sit it in the house with the ficus over the winter? I mean, it couldn't possibly brown up and die like that in 1 day/night right??? Even the leaves in the garage I threw away were still green lol

Also, anyone have an idea what kind of elm it may be?

 

[rockm]

Yeah absolutely a P.O.S. collection trip lol

@Cadillactaste its actually on my back porch, getting sun from morning until about 1ish. Sun burnt leaves is definitely a possibility I suppose. I was just very shocked to see them go from green to that in a night/morning. It was in an opening in the woods, but as the first pic shoes there was plenty of foliage to help block the sun from a lot of the tree.

@markyscott I was getting horrible cell signal, but before I dug it I searched the BNut forums and came across a few post where people were saying how hardy elms were so I went for it. It was still a very, very, VERY bad collection trip and even worse practices doing the collection. we were spent. Worried about dehydration after spending from 9am - 3pm out in the farm lands with 1 bottle of water. Definitely not planned out well.

@rockm I may have access to a greenhouse, not sure exactly what a "cold greenhouse" is.

I'm leaning towards what @0soyoung suggested placing it into a big black trash bag and moving it into a shaded corner of the yard which gets no direct sunlight while I check on greenhouse space.

What does everyone think about that idea? Do you guys at least think it was a pretty good trunk? .... was.... smdh

A cold greenhouse is one that keeps temperatures between 35 and 25 F through the winter. this is NOT the typical greenhouse set-up which is generally for tropical plants. You DON'T want that to overwinter a native elm

And FWIW, I'd just skip it for this tree and find another one. This one has extreme inverse taper that is only going to get worse...

Also, bonsai is all about patience and performing the right tasks at the right time...just sayin...

 

[Johnathan]

A cold greenhouse is one that keeps temperatures between 35 and 25 F through the winter. this is NOT the typical greenhouse set-up which is generally for tropical plants. You DON'T want that to overwinter a native elm

And FWIW, I'd just skip it for this tree and find another one. This one has extreme inverse taper that is only going to get worse...

Also, bonsai is all about patience and performing the right tasks at the right time...just sayin...

Well once I got it all potted up, my plan was to let it sit for a couple of years and then do an air layer here:



I was going to try and get a twin trunk out of that section above the red line or in the very least use that big trunk on the right since it has a nice curve.

Also the section below the line for a 2nd tree. Possibly.

I've never looked at this as just 1 tree to build off. Of course, this was a few years away so I didn't even mention it. My goal now is to keep it alive.

No to indoors over winter like a ficus? Or at least til any new growth has hardened off and then the garage for a dormancy?........

Or are you saying that since collected this late the tree would be occupied with pushing buds when it should be preparing for winter?

 

[rockm]

Well once I got it all potted up, my plan was to let it sit for a couple of years and then do an air layer here:

View attachment 206789

I was going to try and get a twin trunk out of that section above the red line or in the very least use that big trunk on the right since it has a nice curve.

Also the section below the line for a 2nd tree. Possibly.

I've never looked at this as just 1 tree to build off. Of course, this was a few years away so I didn't even mention it. My goal now is to keep it alive.

No to indoors over winter like a ficus? Or at least til any new growth has hardened off and then the garage for a dormancy?........

Or are you saying that since collected this late the tree would be occupied with pushing buds when it should be preparing for winter?

I would NOT keep it indoors. It is not a ficus. The dry heat over the winter isn't going to help it even if it survives until then. BTW, the cut ends of the branches should have been sealed at collection. Exposed cuts like that tend to kill off the remaining branch still on the tree because of moisture loss.

Even if you get new growth that hardens off, the tree will be in leaf at the worst time possible, when all other trees have gone dormant for the approaching winter. The new foliage is mostly doomed. If you have a greenhouse location, that remains bright and warm enough, I don't really know what would happen if the tree continued to grow through the winter. Most likely it would wear itself out.

"saying that since collected this late the tree would be occupied with pushing buds when it should be preparing for winter"

You have asked it to do both at the same time, which is why I'm so pessimistic.

That's beside the point, because this tree is probably not going to make it that far. Not saying that definitively, as nothing is impossible, but it's not likely looking at the dead foliage, unsealed cuts, abbreviated root system and prospects for overwintering.

 

[0soyoung]

Even if you get new growth that hardens off, the tree will be in leaf at the worst time possible, when all other trees have gone dormant for the approaching winter. The new foliage is mostly doomed.

Today is 20 August. First frost in Oklahoma City is, on average, 5 November; about 3.5 months from now - a touch more than one quarter of one year - an entire season (if you are lucky enough to have four of them a year).

Context.

 

[rockm]

Today is 20 August. First frost in Oklahoma City is, on average, 5 November; about 3.5 months from now - a touch more than one quarter of one year - an entire season (if you are lucky enough to have four of them a year).

Context.

A season to do what--grow new leaves, grow a new root system, both, prepare reserves for winter? Sorry there isn't enough time to do all of that successfully, even for an elm

Three and a half months is not long enough for a tree with no leaves and no roots to recover and regain enough strength to make it through the winter and push new growth in the spring. I've collected elms in that area out of season. Things don't end well.

context...

 

[Johnathan]

I would NOT keep it indoors. It is not a ficus. The dry heat over the winter isn't going to help it even if it survives until then. BTW, the cut ends of the branches should have been sealed at collection. Exposed cuts like that tend to kill off the remaining branch still on the tree because of moisture loss.

Even if you get new growth that hardens off, the tree will be in leaf at the worst time possible, when all other trees have gone dormant for the approaching winter. The new foliage is mostly doomed. If you have a greenhouse location, that remains bright and warm enough, I don't really know what would happen if the tree continued to grow through the winter. Most likely it would wear itself out.

"saying that since collected this late the tree would be occupied with pushing buds when it should be preparing for winter"

You have asked it to do both at the same time, which is why I'm so pessimistic.

That's beside the point, because this tree is probably not going to make it that far. Not saying that definitively, as nothing is impossible, but it's not likely looking at the dead foliage, unsealed cuts, abbreviated root system and prospects for overwintering.

Awesome post. That's what I wasn't sure about and that's why I didn't cut back to the main trunk. Without it being sealed, I figured most of the individual branches/trunks would die but not enough to kill the main trunk. I thought if I left enough length and a few leaves it would be okay. I never factored them into any long term plans.

Another concern was how to keep enough balance there with such a small amount of collected roots? I was under the impression it needs to have leaves to form roots, but undecided if the roots would support that much movement to through each branch.

Makes 100% complete sense about the dormancy and growing when it should be resting. No worries about being pessimistic. I respect experience.

 

[rockm]

Awesome post. That's what I wasn't sure about and that's why I didn't cut back to the main trunk. Without it being sealed, I figured most of the individual branches/trunks would die but not enough to kill the main trunk. I thought if I left enough length and a few leaves it would be okay. I never factored them into any long term plans.

Another concern was how to keep enough balance there with such a small amount of collected roots? I was under the impression it needs to have leaves to form roots, but undecided if the roots would support that much movement to through each branch.

Makes 100% complete sense about the dormancy and growing when it should be resting. No worries about being pessimistic. I respect experience.

Top growth cannot be sustained without a working root system. The tree has to regenerate roots, THEN work on foliage. My experience with elms collected out of season in Texas is that older trees like this one will put out an initial flush of new growth a couple of weeks after collection. HOWEVER, that initial growth is from stored inertia in the trunk and not because of regeneration of a root system. Success comes when the tree pushes A SECOND flush of new leaves usually three or four week after collection. That means the tree has generated enough roots to support the foliage. Out of season digging the late spring early summer resulted in an initial flush of growth. Then death a couple of weeks later.

Zach Smith of Bonsai-South told me he bags problem trees in plastic to keep the tree going after the first flush. That is done in the late spring/summer, with at least a few MONTHS of recovery time ahead. You have less than that and declining temperatures to go along with it.

 

[Johnathan]

Well... finally home for the day, and I listened and I didn't. I put it into a black yard bag, it took 2 bags to cover it. 1 on top and 1 on bottom.

Then I see this post on "sweating trees" found here: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/sweating-trees.32753/

Well, I decided I wanted to try that, very similar to what 0so was saying, the only difference was the full sun/shade. Well, I couldn't close the bag tightly around it, so I went ahead and chopped a little bit more off the trunks sticking off the main trunk to allow me to tightly close the bag. I placed it in the middle of the yard on a bucket. We should start hitting 90+ temps again by Thursday so that should help.

I also did the scratch test on a section that I cut off, it was still green. *fingers crossed*

 

[Cristian D.]

Did you sealed the cuts this time ?