Probio Carbon - Mirai Asymmetry Podcast with Karen O’Hanlon

Colorado

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The product is not intact olive stones, its broken up. I would say around 1mm pieces. It seems fine to me, just saying.
Oh that is interesting, I did not realize that. Good to know!

On the podcast she suggested incorporating at about 5%, so for me having that small proportion be a bit small isn’t a big issue. I do agree it would be preferable if it were a bit bigger.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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You can order each of those microbes and fungi individually online @Colorado :)
And they're not hard to grow either! Bacillus subtilis is present everywhere for instance, and Trichoderma viride and T. harzarium are often combined in pelletized form, you can grow viride on any fruit and harzarium in yeast extract (marmite without salt) and potato starch. Basically any fungus would grow in that mixture, and they'll sporulate whenever the water or nutrients run out.
Collecting mushroom spores is easy too; snip off a cap and let it dry on a piece of paper or tinfoil.

Those concentrations are based on the amount of spore-forming units, but since these microbes have all been extensively grown, you wouldn't need expensive materials to do this yourself. An estimate time based system would work as well, and since these are all spore-forming, it doesn't matter if you're a day late.
But you would need a pressure cooker and some lab grade glassware.

My base isn't olive stone, but the key is that there's a matrix for these microbes to hide in. Something that releases carbon in some way or form when broken down. Olive stone lasts longer, which is absolutely true. I get a pretty decent charcoal output and while it might not be perfectly similar, there is a scientific basis for using pine specifically. Although.. The scientists themselves don't know either why pine charcoal just works better.

Most of these techniques sound very high tech and super scientific but when you boil it down to individual components, it's as easy as homebrewing beer, or setting a paint can in a fireplace for an x-amount of time. But as I've said in another comment: the Japanese have been fermenting for millenia, how come they haven't been using those extracts (containing a whole lot of the same bacteria) for their trees?

I'm a big fan of microbes and their workings, but over the years I have developed some scepticism towards most claims people like Harry Harrington made about this specific product. Too bad there's no side-to-side comparison.
It would be impossible to do in a lab, unfortunately.

I also wonder how many of these microbes stick around for a long time.
I'm not advocating against the use of probio carbon, I'm convinced it's beneficial in some way or form. It's just that I think everyone can make something similar for themselves and it'd be a fun winter activity for some people.
 

BrightsideB

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The only way to correctly identify fungi or bacteria is through DNA. There is also varieties within a specie. And some grow in certain conditions while others do not. Just because mycelium is growing in a container does not mean symbiosis. It could just be feeding on components in the soil. Actually stripping the food source from the tree. There is also evidence proving symbiosis is real and beneficial to the health of tree and mycelium. The only thing is to actually know you have a true symbiosis in your container is to actually do DNA tests. These microbes kill each other as well. So it is possible that before the spores germinate they become a food source. Even with inoculation of an established bacteria or mycelium. It is extremely likely they will not survive without the proper environment. But it is worth trying. I have developed several good symbiotic environments in several pines and they are extremely healthy and withstand drought better. Also when symbiosis does occur the fungi or bacteria actually becomes stronger to keep the container healthier. And that relationship in tact.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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The only thing is to actually know you have a true symbiosis in your container is to actually do DNA tests.
The DNA of the fungus can end up in a plant even if it's not symbiotic, in the case of parasitism for instance, or general pathogeny. And the other way around too; plants can shed DNA into the environment and fungi are known to be able to incorporate (or sometimes just suck it up to break down) foreign DNA.
The method to actually know is to use isotope-labeled elements and feed it to the fungus; if it ends up in the plant within a day, they're symbiotically connected. Or maybe an immuno-assay to see if either one responds to the other. But that would only prove that the connection is, or isn't rejected. It says nothing about if it's established.
The thing with DNA is that genomes are published in a consensus way and that they are "the average" of a couple thousand different strains. For instance, there is no actual human containing the "human genome" as it's published because every single one of us has small or large mutations. In theoretical terms, based on the genome, no human is lactose intolerant or allergic to peanuts. But in reality we see both. A fungus can be of a certain group, family or strain that theoretically forms a symbiotic relationship, but in practice it might just be free-roaming even though it contains mycorrhizal genes.

That's also the point where I disagree with Dr. O'Hanlon stating that endomycorrhiza form a bond within a seed and are never able to do it later in life. Fungi are so insanely diverse and have such an insanely large genome, nucleus counts and mutations, that I wouldn't dare to make a statement that endomycorrhiza would never be able to do it later in life. Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean that somewhere on this globe it isn't happening. The fact that heterokaryotism is a thing, means that we can try to isolate fungal DNA, but that it's almost always contaminated with a multitude of genetically different nuclei of the same species. Isolating a monokaryotic fungus can be done, but it's rather difficult and it almost always needs to be lab-grown.

Imagine a fungus doing a genetics check with a host for instance (it's been proven that they do this, as well as immunological checks) and we take a cutting, disinfect it, grow it in a lab and then and plant it in the same soil as the parent. The fungus might very well connect to the cutting, even though it wasn't present inside that cutting's tissue in the first place. If that is possible, I can imagine it would be possible that a fungus somewhere might be bad at this check and just tries to connect with everything it touches. All it needs is a host that doesn't mind. And I honestly believe there are fungi out there that do such things. Thousands of them.

But mycorrhizal connections doesn't mean it's not a hostage situation: sometimes mycorrhizae can starve a tree from nitrogen.
Instead, market mechanisms may generate self-stabilization of the mycorrhizal strategy via nitrogen depletion feedback, even if plant growth is ultimately reduced
 

BrightsideB

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The DNA of the fungus can end up in a plant even if it's not symbiotic, in the case of parasitism for instance, or general pathogeny. And the other way around too; plants can shed DNA into the environment and fungi are known to be able to incorporate (or sometimes just suck it up to break down) foreign DNA.
The method to actually know is to use isotope-labeled elements and feed it to the fungus; if it ends up in the plant within a day, they're symbiotically connected. Or maybe an immuno-assay to see if either one responds to the other. But that would only prove that the connection is, or isn't rejected. It says nothing about if it's established.
The thing with DNA is that genomes are published in a consensus way and that they are "the average" of a couple thousand different strains. For instance, there is no actual human containing the "human genome" as it's published because every single one of us has small or large mutations. In theoretical terms, based on the genome, no human is lactose intolerant or allergic to peanuts. But in reality we see both. A fungus can be of a certain group, family or strain that theoretically forms a symbiotic relationship, but in practice it might just be free-roaming even though it contains mycorrhizal genes.

That's also the point where I disagree with Dr. O'Hanlon stating that endomycorrhiza form a bond within a seed and are never able to do it later in life. Fungi are so insanely diverse and have such an insanely large genome, nucleus counts and mutations, that I wouldn't dare to make a statement that endomycorrhiza would never be able to do it later in life. Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean that somewhere on this globe it isn't happening. The fact that heterokaryotism is a thing, means that we can try to isolate fungal DNA, but that it's almost always contaminated with a multitude of genetically different nuclei of the same species. Isolating a monokaryotic fungus can be done, but it's rather difficult and it almost always needs to be lab-grown.

Imagine a fungus doing a genetics check with a host for instance (it's been proven that they do this, as well as immunological checks) and we take a cutting, disinfect it, grow it in a lab and then and plant it in the same soil as the parent. The fungus might very well connect to the cutting, even though it wasn't present inside that cutting's tissue in the first place. If that is possible, I can imagine it would be possible that a fungus somewhere might be bad at this check and just tries to connect with everything it touches. All it needs is a host that doesn't mind. And I honestly believe there are fungi out there that do such things. Thousands of them.

But mycorrhizal connections doesn't mean it's not a hostage situation: sometimes mycorrhizae can starve a tree from nitrogen.

I agree with your statements. I meant testing the DNA of the mycelium or potentially a fruited mushroom to know what is growing. If a known symbiotic fungi or bacteria that is symbiotic with trees is present then you know there is likely symbiosis happening. But usually it seems with my experience that it is seen in the tree’s health and vigor. I have some pines in the same substrate some much healthier. This could be genetics but the ones healthier have containers full of mycelium. I’ve read in several articles that certain fungi and tree species connect due to their history surviving in forest for very long periods of time.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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If a fungus forms a fruiting body, you can ID it without genetic testing based on the spore color and the mushroom shape. And sometimes the response of the mycelium to a KOH solution; some fungi turn black, purple or blue.
There are a lot of Identification keys out there that are pretty solid.
I too have some strong trees with a whole bunch of mycelium in the pots. They seem to do better than other trees.
A less favorable way of knowing they're symbiotic is time as well. I've grown a whole bunch of different fungi and in general they eat about 6kg of sawdust within 4 months. So if my mycelium is present after 2 years in just 1kg of soil (and your pot isn't made out of wood) then it's safe to assume that there is a connection.
 

MichaelS

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Michael, how does the synthetic fertilizer impact the microbiology inside the container?
Not at all unless you apply too much P (mainly) or too much N. Or you use ridiculous concentrations. Too much P inhibits or stops mycorrhizal development dead, and too much N slows it down. K has no effect. Adding microbes to your potting mix will in most cases turn out to be a complete waste of time. Lab experiments under controlled environments and pots in backyards are chalk and cheese. Don't be taken in by people selling products like that. The root environment is an extremely complex place with interactions of thousands of different species. Adding some will in some cases perhaps make a difference but quantifying over an extended time period is next to impossible. Usually, the native species already there will be the ones which populate and successfully compete with any new comers. Many millions of plants are grown in pots all over the world in good p/mixes and good water and fertilizer management.
 
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Not at all unless

Well that is directly contrary to what Dr. O’Hanlon says, LOL.

I agree with you that all that’s necessary is a good soil substrate and organic fertilizer. That’s what I do currently. However I think there’s always room for some improvement, and that’s why I’m looking forward to trying these products. Not expecting a night and day difference, if anything I’d expect the gains to be pretty marginal.

Perhaps I won’t notice any difference at all in which case won’t buy it again. Perhaps, on the other hand, I’ll be pleasantly surprised! In any event it will be a fun little experiment. :)
 

Scorpius

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This reminds me of my reef tank forum where certain people spend all sorts of time adding additives to their tanks and sending their water off for testing. Meanwhile I just feed my tank, do weekly water changes, and keep my water parameters stable with the same results.
 

Colorado

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What is she saying? Buy my stuff and things will be great?
You’d have to listen to the podcast!

She was actually very candid that she is not experienced in bonsai, but her bonsai professional clients have been reporting good results. Peter Warren was mentioned specifically.

What is appealing to me about the system is that - if it functions as it is designed to - allows for chemical-free options for disease and pest resistance and control. There is a biological anti-fungal for example. The biochar is just one part of it. The prospect of a chemical-free system is something that I am very interested in.
 
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I listened to it and it has lots of good information. But I want to take it 1 step at a time.
From my understanding Mirai still using the Blue Gold brand thingy, and want to know what is the effect of it and how to use it.
Thanks for sharing :)
 

Ugo

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@Colorado

I was interrested in testing the product, in fact this same exact kit but it cost 122€ alone for shipping to Canada!
Hope the price is better for the US!
 

namnhi

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I have been doing this all wrong I afraid... good thing is trees still growing in normal substrate with water and osmocote pellets.
 
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Very exciting @Colorado . Am curious to see your experience using Danu . If we don't try new products and give chance to using new methods, we will always be stalled in progress just like bonsai in Japan is recently
 

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Make sure you got what you ordered
 
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