Problems with a branch. Juniperus Virginiana (Eastern Red Cedar)

[artao]

So this happened this week. A couple branches appear to be not doing so well, if not indeed dead. The bark is broken at the very base of the branch. Not sure what caused it, tho there's been evidence of digging a couple times, and also some stormy winds (tho I brought it into a more sheltered area when that was happening)
Anyhow. I rather liked this branch.
Should I cut it off? Or perhaps retain it for shari? I don't think I have what I'd need to repair it, unless duct tape or kite string would work
Sorry about the blurriness of the images. My camera doesn't do so well with close photos a lot of times.

 

[choppychoppy]

Please throw this away. Sorry man.

 

[artao]

Please throw this away. Sorry man.

Yeah, ya know what? STFU.
That's not even remotely helpful, and is also highly opinionated. Keep such crap to yourself.
I ask no forgiveness for my harshness, because your post is asinine and I don't take kindly to such bullshit.
Go play tiddlywinks with manhole covers.

 

[Vance Wood]

Red Cedar is not the best candidate for a good bonsai, I have only seen one--- belonging to Vance Hanna. The joints at the trunk are fragile and if you have been bending the branches this way and that you may have fractured the cambium killing the brances.

 

[artao]

Red Cedar is not the best candidate for a good bonsai, I have only seen one--- belonging to Vance Hanna. The joints at the trunk are fragile and if you have been bending the branches this way and that you may have fractured the cambium killing the brances.

That's fine. I already have it, for a month now, and other than this it's doing great! New shoots and the startings of some adult leaves. And I have seen numerous examples of perfectly fine and nice looking eastern red cedar bonsai online. They're not hard to take care of according to everything I've read.
But yeah, that's what I'm thinking is broken cambium (couldn't think of the word earlier). I didn't want to damage it any further so I didn't really bend it much to check out the base of the branch, but I can certainly see the inner trunk from the top (couldnt' really see from underneath without bending the branch further than I was willing to)
Also, I haven't been bending the branch myself. Just letting it grow for at least a year. Like I said, I'm guessing either an animal (bird or squirrel) or wind damaged it.
If the cambium is totally girdled, that that branch is done for AFAIK. Can that sort of thing be repaired?
In that case, would it be worth leaving for shari? I'm thinking just cut it off. It'll grow more branches with time.

 

[bonsaichile]

That branch is a goner. And it is too slim to make a convincing jin

 

[Vance Wood]

That's fine. I already have it, for a month now, and other than this it's doing great! New shoots and the startings of some adult leaves. And I have seen numerous examples of perfectly fine and nice looking eastern red cedar bonsai online. They're not hard to take care of according to everything I've read.
But yeah, that's what I'm thinking is broken cambium (couldn't think of the word earlier). I didn't want to damage it any further so I didn't really bend it much to check out the base of the branch, but I can certainly see the inner trunk from the top (couldnt' really see from underneath without bending the branch further than I was willing to)
Also, I haven't been bending the branch myself. Just letting it grow for at least a year. Like I said, I'm guessing either an animal (bird or squirrel) or wind damaged it.
If the cambium is totally girdled, that that branch is done for AFAIK. Can that sort of thing be repaired?
In that case, would it be worth leaving for shari? I'm thinking just cut it off. It'll grow more branches with time.

If you are talking about the small branches as I assume, jin is probably out as an option. Usually it takes a much larger branch to become jin, what you are looking at will decompost before it ages into jin, Lime Sulfur or not.

 

[artao]

That's what I was afraid of. Too bad. That's gonna make that side of the tree quite sparse.
Note as well that this tree is about 24cm tall, and I intend to keep it shari size.
Would it possibly be worthwhile to wire the tree simply to protect the base of the branches from overbending?

 

[bonsaichile]

It is hard to get a full image of your tree, but for what I can see, it is still very young, with weak branches with sparse foliage. If that is the case, you need to allow the tree to gain vigor and bulk up a bit before thinking of doing anything else to it. Just sun, water and fertilizer for a couple seasons, until you have something to work with. If you wire now, you run the risk of losing more branches, in my opinion. I would leave it alone for a while

 

[RichS]

Yea man I'd hate for you to think I'm being rude or "asinine" but there's not alot to be done here. Other than doin as already suggested and just letting it do its thing for while. Which means probably a LONG LONG while. ERC arent the best for bonsai. Now there ARE examples and there ARE a select few who mess with them but other than using it to learn from(which may be what your doin)until you get something more "suitable" then your gonna be spending alot of time and effort into something that honestly may not amount to anything rewarding. At least not for a decade ? You should be able to find something more suitable at most retail nurseries. Like I said not trying to be negative. I just know that I've tried one when I first got into bonsai and after alot of wasted time and effort ended up just planting it behind my house (where it still grows and looks almost the exact same)

 

[artao]

I'm not asking if people like the tree. I'm asking if the wound is fatal to the branch. Sounds like it is. That's fine, tho a damned shame. I'll have to take steps to prevent that sort of thing happening again.
I don't care if other people here don't like the tree or consider it poor for bonsai. It's irrelevant. I like it. That first response saying simply, "Please throw this tree away." was unnecessary and, yes, literally asinine. If I get comments like that simply posting a pic of a problem branch and asking how bad it is, why the heck would I risk posting a pic of the full tree? No thanks, not going to subject myself to that. I'm only seeking technical info.

The tree is between 5 and 10 yrs old, according to a tree-guy I know. The trunk base is about 3/4 inch and tapers to about 5/16 inch at the top. Total branch width is around 15 inches. It's about 9.5 inches tall, at which point the trunk is broken off from having been run over by probably a front end loader. It has a good root system. It is a survivor. I realize that it'll take awhile to grow in. Isn't that part of the point of bonsai, patience? It's not an immediate gratification thing. Also, like I said, this will remain shohin. I'm not planning for it to get much bigger than this. Just denser ramification. Plus pot decoration, like mosses and rocks/stones, and maybe little figures, which will enhance the size appearance of the tree.
It had a good deal more foliage when I collected it. I had to trim off a fair deal of dead, damaged, and cluttered material but didn't really do any pruning, per se. The foliage was certainly thicker when I collected it. It will grow back tho, and in fact already is.
And to re-iterate re: wiring. It would be solely to provide additional support and strength to the base of branches. Not for shaping. Not wiring the whole tree. Just giving the branches a "brace" so this doesn't happen again. Is this not something people do?
Losing this branch certainly changes the tree's look, but to me I can see it'll still work.

At any rate. Question answered. Moving on. Thanks.

 

[choppychoppy]

Yeah, ya know what? STFU.
That's not even remotely helpful, and is also highly opinionated. Keep such crap to yourself.
I ask no forgiveness for my harshness, because your post is asinine and I don't take kindly to such bullshit.
Go play tiddlywinks with manhole covers.

Sometimes things need to go in the trash like this whole batch I pitched last weekend. But hey idc what anyone does with their time. But facts are facts and this is a poor species, that specifically is bad material and this 'tree' will most likely be dead in less than 5 years with little to no change. Just bc you don't want to hear it doesn't make it true. Time spent on trash is time taken away from real practice and real learning. One of the most difficult lessons to learn - freebie. Have a wonderful day.

 

[bonsaichile]

I'm not asking if people like the tree. I'm asking if the wound is fatal to the branch. Sounds like it is. That's fine, tho a damned shame. I'll have to take steps to prevent that sort of thing happening again.
I don't care if other people here don't like the tree or consider it poor for bonsai. It's irrelevant. I like it. That first response saying simply, "Please throw this tree away." was unnecessary and, yes, literally asinine. If I get comments like that simply posting a pic of a problem branch and asking how bad it is, why the heck would I risk posting a pic of the full tree? No thanks, not going to subject myself to that. I'm only seeking technical info.

The tree is between 5 and 10 yrs old, according to a tree-guy I know. The trunk base is about 3/4 inch and tapers to about 5/16 inch at the top. Total branch width is around 15 inches. It's about 9.5 inches tall, at which point the trunk is broken off from having been run over by probably a front end loader. It has a good root system. It is a survivor. I realize that it'll take awhile to grow in. Isn't that part of the point of bonsai, patience? It's not an immediate gratification thing. Also, like I said, this will remain shohin. I'm not planning for it to get much bigger than this. Just denser ramification. Plus pot decoration, like mosses and rocks/stones, and maybe little figures, which will enhance the size appearance of the tree.
It had a good deal more foliage when I collected it. I had to trim off a fair deal of dead, damaged, and cluttered material but didn't really do any pruning, per se. The foliage was certainly thicker when I collected it. It will grow back tho, and in fact already is.
And to re-iterate re: wiring. It would be solely to provide additional support and strength to the base of branches. Not for shaping. Not wiring the whole tree. Just giving the branches a "brace" so this doesn't happen again. Is this not something people do?
Losing this branch certainly changes the tree's look, but to me I can see it'll still work.

At any rate. Question answered. Moving on. Thanks.

Dude, you are unpleasant. If you post here, people will critic your trees. It is a great way to learn. I will put you in ignore now, so I don have to hear your "asinine" reply to this post. Good luck with your stick in a pot!

 

[sorce]

Feller! I hope you are more determined now than ever to make this a bitchin tree!
Who gives a shit if it takes a hundred years!

Almost every branch I ever had die was at a position about that thickness...less than an 1/8th or so...

I've torn the top of branches from the trunk and they live on fine.

But them skinny skinnies are near to fragile for wire at all.....at least at certain times and water levels. The cambium is just too thin...
Bark too thin...bout all they can handle is wind and bird shits! But a properly placed turd can keep it growing down!

It's in a pot and growing....
Cheers!
We can drink a shitload of beer while this grows that we would not be able to afford if we go and spend beer $ on "better" trees!

Fuck that!

I like how you keep your drink in your cup!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

That's fine. I already have it, for a month now, and other than this it's doing great! New shoots and the startings of some adult leaves. And I have seen numerous examples of perfectly fine and nice looking eastern red cedar bonsai online. They're not hard to take care of according to everything I've read.
But yeah, that's what I'm thinking is broken cambium (couldn't think of the word earlier). I didn't want to damage it any further so I didn't really bend it much to check out the base of the branch, but I can certainly see the inner trunk from the top (couldnt' really see from underneath without bending the branch further than I was willing to)
Also, I haven't been bending the branch myself. Just letting it grow for at least a year. Like I said, I'm guessing either an animal (bird or squirrel) or wind damaged it.
If the cambium is totally girdled, that that branch is done for AFAIK. Can that sort of thing be repaired?
In that case, would it be worth leaving for shari? I'm thinking just cut it off. It'll grow more branches with time.

Well, I guess I'd point to the difficulties you're having with it. You haven't had it for more than a month. It's NOT doing great. It's dropping branches and steadily losing foliage. The remaining branches look pretty weak and I wouldn't get to attached to them...If it is throwing new growth, that new growth will probably come at the expense of existing foliage. This has to do with how the root system is wired to the top of the tree. I'd bet that "good root" system was fairly rotted and the tree is pushing a new set of them...

FWIW, There is no repair for a dead conifer branch with no green on it. It's a goner. Doesn't have to be girdled...Sorry. That's the way it works with conifers. If it were a deciduous tree, you might wait to see it it backbudded. ERC won't backbud without some kind of foliage on the branch.

If the branch is broken, it's probably squirrels, not wind. Good luck getting those little tree rats under control.

 

[RichS]

Pls believe that I'm certainly not trying to bash your tree. I'm sure there's many members here who have gotten something they believed was going to be great. And they post it and people comment to the opposite and it feels like your being attacked. I know I have! To me its sounds like your heads in the right mindset to make something nice. Even if (in my opinion) your material is wanting. Do your research and LEARN. Ultimately it's up to you to come to terms with whether something you have will ever amount to anything. But your gonna have to take the good with the bad. Even if it's what you don't want to hear. But don't let it frustrate you to the point where you give up(which certainly sounds like your not ) Theres a wealth of knowledge on this site. For ALL KINDS of material. So again. Pls don't feel like anyone's tryin to take anything away from you and what your trying to do. If your determined that this tree is gonna be the one no matter what any one tried to tell you...well then do your thing and best of luck! Just remember CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is a GOOD thing.

 

[Vin]

If I may ask, where are you finding these online fine examples? I only know of one and it's hard to find the image unless you know what you're looking for. I have a couple I've been working on for 6 years now (I think) and would like to see some other non-grafted examples for inspiration.

 

[artao]

Feller! I hope you are more determined now than ever to make this a bitchin tree!
Who gives a shit if it takes a hundred years!

Almost every branch I ever had die was at a position about that thickness...less than an 1/8th or so...

I've torn the top of branches from the trunk and they live on fine.

But them skinny skinnies are near to fragile for wire at all.....at least at certain times and water levels. The cambium is just too thin...
Bark too thin...bout all they can handle is wind and bird shits! But a properly placed turd can keep it growing down!

It's in a pot and growing....
Cheers!
We can drink a shitload of beer while this grows that we would not be able to afford if we go and spend beer $ on "better" trees!

Fuck that!

I like how you keep your drink in your cup!

Sorce

Thanks.
I get what you're saying re: wiring for support, and that makes sense. That's the sort of info I'm looking for. It sounds like wiring for support would risk damaging the bark and cambium, so I won't do that.
What you said is MUCH more useful than others simply saying, "Don't do that."

I've read TONS on the subject in books and watching videos. Been meaning to actually DO bonsai for over a decade, and this year my renewed interest coincided (barely) with the right time of year. So now I've got this juniper and a few little jade plants. I'm also considering air-gapping a couple yard trees.
One thing I'm learning about bonsai, rapidly, is that:
A) If you find info saying one thing, you're sure to find info saying the opposite. There's TONS of contradictory info online.
B) Bonsai people can be ridiculously opinionated, and are more than willing to give you their opinion whether you want it or not.

If I ask a technical question, I don't want to hear people's opinions about the tree itself. It's irrelevant. Answer the question and keep your opinion to yourself.

@rockm -- I'm not having "difficulties" (plural) with this tree. This is THE ONLY problem. It is not "dropping branches and steadily losing foliage." This ONE branch got damaged, most likely by an animal. It is actually gaining foliage, not losing it. And the foliage coming in appears to be mature scale leaves, rather than the juvenile needle leaves (which are still the majority).
As to "I'd bet that "good root" system was fairly rotted and the tree is pushing a new set of them..."
You lose that bet.
This isn't my first go with plants, just my first go with bonsai. The root system is excellent and strong. Not even REMOTELY rotted. I know what good roots look like. Had the roots been bad, I'd have left the tree where I found it.
But thanks for your assumptions and criticisms, even tho I didn't ask for them.

 

[rockm]

Thanks.
I get what you're saying re: wiring for support, and that makes sense. That's the sort of info I'm looking for. It sounds like wiring for support would risk damaging the bark and cambium, so I won't do that.
What you said is MUCH more useful than others simply saying, "Don't do that."

I've read TONS on the subject in books and watching videos. Been meaning to actually DO bonsai for over a decade, and this year my renewed interest coincided (barely) with the right time of year. So now I've got this juniper and a few little jade plants. I'm also considering air-gapping a couple yard trees.
One thing I'm learning about bonsai, rapidly, is that:
A) If you find info saying one thing, you're sure to find info saying the opposite. There's TONS of contradictory info online.
B) Bonsai people can be ridiculously opinionated, and are more than willing to give you their opinion whether you want it or not.

If I ask a technical question, I don't want to hear people's opinions about the tree itself. It's irrelevant. Answer the question and keep your opinion to yourself.

@rockm -- I'm not having "difficulties" (plural) with this tree. This is THE ONLY problem. It is not "dropping branches and steadily losing foliage." This ONE branch got damaged, most likely by an animal. It is actually gaining foliage, not losing it. And the foliage coming in appears to be mature scale leaves, rather than the juvenile needle leaves (which are still the majority).
As to "I'd bet that "good root" system was fairly rotted and the tree is pushing a new set of them..."
You lose that bet.
This isn't my first go with plants, just my first go with bonsai. The root system is excellent and strong. Not even REMOTELY rotted. I know what good roots look like. Had the roots been bad, I'd have left the tree where I found it.
But thanks for your assumptions and criticisms, even tho I didn't ask for them.

Why are you taking this so personally? You can be argumentative all you want, but its dropping branches for a reason. That's pretty plain for anyone who's been doing this for more than a few years. That foliage is weak and not getting stronger. The "Rah-Rah Go ERC" is fine as far as it goes, but it isn't going to help your tree much.

Your assumptions about bonsai based on gardening are not as accurate as you think. I don't know if you collected this tree, but that process can take its toll on a tree years after it's been initially dug up.

Reading books is not DOING bonsai. Get your panties in a twist all you want. Your tree has something going on beyond that single branch, whether you have the humility to see it or not.

I base my assumptions on 25 years of doing bonsai and collecting trees. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[bonsaichile]

@rockm leave him alone. The guy is a troll, clearly an a-hole looking to pick up a fight. Online, because he probably is too much of a coward to go to the local bar