Procumbens 2 - The NON-Urine one.

[LanceMac10]

Please see @Brian Van Fleet s Nebari Word Press
or maybe he could link the illustration.
Your term “spiky” should be replaced with either needle or scale to be accurate.

Needle here is juvenile, scale is mature foliage. Think you might have it backwards.

OP juniper will be awash with "spiky" juvenile foliage shortly.

@HorseloverFat You need to set yourself up for success. Not much but reckless pruning with little direction. With all the things you've done it'll be tough to diagnose if the material doesn't make it.

Patience.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Needle here is juvenile, scale is mature foliage. Think you might have it backwards.

OP juniper will be awash with "spiky" juvenile foliage shortly.

@HorseloverFat You need to set yourself up for success. Not much but reckless pruning with little direction. With all the things you've done it'll be tough to diagnose if the material doesn't make it.

Patience.

Thank you! Hehe! I agree with "reckless"..and setting myself up fot success.

But I Have some sort of direction..



Thank you everyone for crossing your fingers for me...

I will let ya'll know if this one survives.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Needle here is juvenile, scale is mature foliage. Think you might have it backwards.

OP juniper will be awash with "spiky" juvenile foliage shortly.

Not in all cases, there are true needle junipers like Communis or Rigida that never will have scales, Procumbens although is in the Chinensis group dont behave as a regular scale junipers, no matter what you do it always will tend to revert with needle growth at the lightest prune, only very old pot bound specimens have mostly scale. Ryan explains it very well in a recent video

 

[Japonicus]

Not in all cases, there are true needle junipers like Communis or Rigida that never will have scales, Procumbens although is in the Chinensis group dont behave as a regular scale junipers, no matter what you do it always will tend to revert with needle growth at the lightest prune, only very old pot bound specimens have mostly scale. Ryan explains it very well in a recent video

Before I play this video, and I will, I'm going to ask a silly but now honest question.
Isn't shimpaku scale? The reason I'm asking, is when I get aggressive on my procumbens
thinning and or pruning, some of the foliage will change, deviating from normal, then looking more like shimpaku where
it has obviously gone juvenile.
Therefore explaining what I'm perhaps confusing to @canoeguide or anybody else.
It's needle like for years and years, I get aggressive and it throws scale like foliage.

Here are 2 pics of one of my procumbens foliage. Flash made them yellowish looking.
1st normal as if it were growing in the landscape or nursery container chugging along healthily.

Looks needle like to me.

2nd, after thinning in 2020 IIRC, it threw juvenile growth that more closely resembles shimpaku
than it normally does circled in red. It is more cylindrical. In blue, is normal growth that is displayed always
as a constant when satisfied. This is 100% of the time with my procumbens, how they respond to aggressive thinning.
This is what I was saying to @HorseloverFat that his was displaying this cylindrical scale like growth
over a majority of the juniper, because that's what mine does when I intervene with techniques.


Now I'll grab a bowl of cottage cheese and Tostitos, and watch the movie and see what Ryan has to say on the subject.

 

[Carol 83]

Now I'll grab a bowl of cottage cheese and Tostitos

 

[Japonicus]

Ryan explains it very well in a recent video

Yeh...I recall back in the cobwebs somewhere this discussion about procumbens and juvenile growth
but I guess it didn't stick. So ALL of my procumbens when happy and un-intervened upon, are juvenile.
I'll never understand. I hear it, I do not experience it, I forget it. Sorry. I have a difficult time remembering the word fraudulent
so my mind improvises and bogus comes out of my mouth. I really have a poor memory with such things.

At least Ryan and I share the same thought about juvenile growth being less (there I go again) more photosynthetic.
I never thought about it transpiring less when in adult foliage, so HLF's procumbens, while less
photosynthetic, may have a better chance maybe? at recovery than I initially thought.?.IDK

I'm going to start a thread some time about the difficulties that I'm having to overcome from pinching for so many years.
Reversion back to adult foliage is one of those issues. I never dealt with reversion until I started thinning
my procumbens better.

Could somebody please explain the part in this video, about big action = big reaction (push)
and coming back in a month after the new push has hardened off, and react appropriately.
Ryan did not elaborate on the push itself. Might it be, either adult or juvenile or both?
Then, does the cylindrical scale adult foliage on a procumbens ever open up "correcting" itself
or does it need to be removed if it does not adversely affect the profile.
Does cutting adult foliage out begat more adult foliage?

 

[We're all Mad Here...🎩]

View attachment 438795View attachment 438796View attachment 438797View attachment 438799

That is a gnarly haircut indeed. Have fun.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Could somebody please explain the part in this video, about big action = big reaction (push)
and coming back in a month after the new push has hardened off, and react appropriately.
Ryan did not elaborate on the push itself. Might it be, either adult or juvenile or both?
Then, does the cylindrical scale adult foliage on a procumbens ever open up "correcting" itself
or does it need to be removed if it does not adversely affect the profile.
Does cutting adult foliage out begat more adult foliage?

I did not watch the video but procumbens grow heavily when pruned hard. They respond quick and bud like crazy to fill in the canopy. With juvenile foliage.
Then it's waiting time for a second smaller clipping.

Procumbens here in europe don't do scale foliage, ever, but any other juniper responds with juvenile foliage when hit hard with a scissor. Scale foliage rarely opens up, I'd even say it never does. What grows out of juvenile foliage might, can be scale.. I know that the opposite is true for the removal: if you remove juvenile spiky foliage back to a scale part, it'll grow more juvenile foliage so the best option to keep scale foliage is to take it slow.
My guess is that to keep juvenile foliage, continuous pruning can be wise. I don't like juvenile foliage but on the +/- 12 varieties/species of junipers I have, the response to hard pruning is always: juvenile.


US procumbens do have some higher amounts of chinensis genetics in them, and certain strains make nice scale foliage. But to keep that scale foliage is difficult. It requires an approach that we know from chinensis or RMJ: take it slow, let it grow, prune lightly when the flush has finished.

Did that more or less answer your question?

 

[Japonicus]

Did that more or less answer your question?

Yes. Thank you for trying.
So you're saying your procumbens (in Europe) never reverts but remains juvenile no mater what?
No matter how hard you prune? Nice

My guess is that to keep juvenile foliage, continuous pruning can be wise.

This makes sense. I had been forever, pinching, to define pads and control growth.
Never had I experienced a procumbens with adult foliage (what I was mistaking for juvenile)
until I began thinning with the shears.

on the +/- 12 varieties/species of junipers I have, the response to hard pruning is always: juvenile.

Precisely why my ignorance spoke of reversion as juvenile.
So procumbens is ass backwards here in the US.
It stays juvenile until stressed by thinning or extra pruning, then throws adult foliage.
That's ass backwards, and for my own sanity, I will forever, to myself, call stressed response foliage
as juvenile regardless of species. I stand corrected, but disagree LOL

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Yes. Thank you for trying.
So you're saying your procumbens (in Europe) never reverts but remains juvenile no mater what?
No matter how hard you prune? Nice

There are diverse Procumbens strains, in Japan I have seen the same one you have in the US that can form scales but there is also other Procumbens specially old yamadori from the mountains, those never will have scale and coarse bigger needles. In Spain for example Ive seen both ones with scale and other without

 

[HorseloverFat]

This tree did not seem to skip a beat.

But also received no work after that last picture.



What do you conifer guys think?

Safe to do a little thinning and some wiring?

(I asked FIRST for advice, this time.)

 

[Japonicus]

Safe to do a little thinning and some wiring?

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/twisted-itoigawa.14357/page-6 last post.
So I’ve wrapped up pruning now myself, due to healing time.
Dangling foliage safe to remove, light thinning of non lignified wood and wiring should be ok with non
intrusive bends…myself. BVF is warmer, so keep that in mind.

Looking good. Some work is needed yes. Use cut paste if you get adventurou.

 

[HorseloverFat]

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/twisted-itoigawa.14357/page-6 last post.
So I’ve wrapped up pruning now myself, due to healing time.
Dangling foliage safe to remove, light thinning of non lignified wood and wiring should be ok with non
intrusive bends…myself. BVF is warmer, so keep that in mind.

Looking good. Some work is needed yes. Use cut paste if you get adventurou.

Thank you, friend!!!!

 

[Mapleminx]

My first Procumbens... is.. um.. POORLY recovering from my last "Yard Vandalism"-session..

In said session... It was heaved against a cement wall, shattering the container, and then Urinated upon..

When you find the person who did that may I please throw them hard up against a wall and then urinate on them?

 

[Potawatomi13]

This tree did not seem to skip a beat.

But also received no work after that last picture.
View attachment 458043
View attachment 458044

What do you conifer guys think?

Safe to do a little thinning and some wiring?

(I asked FIRST for advice, this time.)

Will Wonders never cease?

 

[HorseloverFat]

Will Wonders never cease?

I was surprised, too!

Like a "mulligan"!

 

[HorseloverFat]

So . I tried to get a decent picture of the work, for a while... But there is just too much "cannon fodder" left on the tree.

Judging by my size of trimmed pile, I removed 30-40 percent of remaining foliage.

But there is still SO much sacrifice, and excess branches.

I WANTED to take 'em all off! But erred to slower, more patient approach.

There IS a plan.. I promise.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

So . I tried to get a decent picture of the work, for a while... But there is just too much "cannon fodder" left on the tree.

Judging by my size of trimmed pile, I removed 30-40 percent of remaining foliage.

But there is still SO much sacrifice, and excess branches.

I WANTED to take 'em all off! But erred to slower, more patient approach.

There IS a plan.. I promise.View attachment 458161

Ouch. I was about to reply to tell you to wait until next year. Well, here's hoping it survives. Winter is about to set in, you are in northern Wisconsin, what were you thinking?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I could not resist

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Juniperus - all members of the genus

Mature foliage is scale foliage.
Juvenile foliage is needle foliage.

Newly sprouted seedlings always display needle foliage for at least one or more growing seasons. With age scale foliage will develop.

J. chinensis including shimpaku - mature scale foliage appears at relatively young age. (in human lifespan terms). Can revert to juvenile needle foliage as a response to hard pruning and rapid growth. Will usually revert back to scale foliage in one or two growing seasons.

Juniper virginiana - is a "needle juniper" in that scale foliage will not develop until advanced age. I have only observed scale foliage on J virginiana on specimens well over 200 years of age. There is an (alleged) 800 year old virginiana on a cliff in Shawnee National forest that looks just like a 6 foot tall shimpaku, nice, fine scale foliage. Sadly, it takes several human life spans for J virginiana to develop scale foliage. The alleged is because it was a university professor guessing the age, it could be as young as maybe 300 years or as old as 1000 years. No dating technique was used other than wild ass guess from knowing history of the region and the cliff face in question.

Other junipers that typically have needle foliage can, and do develop scale foliage with extreme age, slow steady growth and advanced age are required. For practical purposes, most needle junipers should be viewed as functionally permanently needle junipers, unless they are an easy species to convert, like procumbens.

Nephew with the J virginiana with scale foliage. Yes, we are on a cliff about 100 feet above "snake road" in LaRue Pine Hills of Shawnee National forest. In spring and autumn there is a week where the road is swarming with snakes heading to or from their winter dens in the limestone and sandstone bluff that we are on top of. Rattlers, cottonmouths and copperheads. I hate walking around down there.



That is the confluence of the Big Muddy and the Mississippi Rivers in the distance.

Note: Not a whole lot of foliage on that old juniper. Quite a gnarly root system too