Procumbens problem? Yes or no?

Mike Corazzi

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This is a 25 yr old Procumbens that ...may... be ceasing to function.
I took out some brittle and dried out tiny branches that were graying and just not looking vigorous.
I assume that late August shouldn't be producing new growth but I'm a bit worried that it's getting dry tips.

Previously whenever I did an occasional submersion watering, the water would creep up the bark like a wick.
As you can see there isn't any wicking now. This was not a submersion but being put in a tub and water raised to the rim of the pot but not over any soil.

Does this look to be of any worrisome nature?

I don't want to re or up-pot but am wondering if it would be advisable to help the tree.

It hasn't been repotted for 2 years. The present soil dries out ....somewhat.... but not like it had been up to about the beginning of this summer.
I'm also somewhat concerned that those long down-trending branches could be in trouble. ???

The last pic shows fairly good (but not new) tips.

Any suggestions or comments?

Thanks. :)
 

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how often do you water it? Not sure if its the photo but the surface of the soil looks like its kinda swampy, as if its holding too much moisture or if there is still a fair bit of organics in the pot.
 

Mike Corazzi

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how often do you water it? Not sure if its the photo but the surface of the soil looks like its kinda swampy, as if its holding too much moisture or if there is still a fair bit of organics in the pot.
Daily but it's only started looking that way. Was drying out within the day. Not drying now. That's why I'm concerned that maybe it needs more drainage.
Which...would need changing soil. Either up-pot or repot. and it's still hot here.

That pic is about a minute after being lifted out of the submersion tub.
 
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River's Edge

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Daily but it's only started looking that way. Was drying out within the day. Not drying now. That's why I'm concerned that maybe it needs more drainage.
Which...would need changing soil. Either up-pot or repot. and it's still hot here.

That pic is about a minute after being lifted out of the submersion tub.
Or adapt your watering frequency. Junipers can handle a bit dryer circumstances, Not fond of too wet.
 

Mike Corazzi

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No, I’m serious. When I look at a close up of the foliage, it looks like a lot of tips have been pinched. Is this true? Has it been pinched?
Some have been. Ones that decided to stick up like Alfalfa's cowlick.
Why? Is that bad?
 

Adair M

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Some have been. Ones that decided to stick up like Alfalfa's cowlick.
Why? Is that bad?
I don’t pinch junipers.

Have you ever heard the axiom: “Junipers get their strength from their foliage”? Well, it should be: “Junipers get their strength from their growing tips of foliage”.

If you have to shorten a branch, runner or twig of juniper, cut off what you have to cut off, but cut it off at a fork. That will leave all the other growing tips untouched. The WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO is pinch off just the last 1/8 to 1/4 inch of every tip in a section.

Oh, I know that’s what we’ve all been taught to do! But it’s wrong!

You see, it’s the very top end, the growing tip, that provides that strength. Remove that tip, and the entire twig or shoot could die. (Usually does.). So, remove the whole little shoot, back to the junction.

Here is a procumbens nana that was pinched to “make it look good” for the National Shohin Show, back in June. It’s not my tree, and I didn’t pinch it. But I have taken care of it since the show. It looked good at the show (if you could overlook the pinching) it was all green, but as you can see, it’s struggling now. Many of the shoots that were pinched died, whole sections of the tree are really weak!

E19FE4AE-3695-453B-89FC-C04FDD29B06B.jpeg

30833376-D794-4CE7-98D7-7C0ED469727C.jpeg

D092CFAD-1107-4089-969D-0504280A5983.jpeg

See all the dead twigs?

Meanwhile, here is the juniper I had in the show. It’s an Itoigawa, so it’s not an exact comparison, but it’s received the exact same aftercare since the show. Which was basically neglect other than full sun and daily, if not twice daily, waterings:

B3253CD8-CFD5-45AD-9AFC-F1CDE6CA26EF.jpeg

See any browning? Any dead twigs? No!!! It’s NEVER been pinched!!! Never! It gets pruned and cut back (not since the Show), and it has some runners starting I will cut back in a couple weeks, but it Never, EVER, gets pinched!

Both trees have been on my bench since the show. They get the same sun, the same water, the same fertilizer. One was pinched, the other wasn’t. Which looks better, healthier?
 
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just.wing.it

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I don’t pinch junipers.

Have you ever heard the axiom: “Junipers get their strength from their foliage”? Well, it should be: “Junipers get their strength from their growing tips of foliage”.

If you have to shorten a branch, runner or twig of juniper, cut off what you have to cut off, but cut it off at a fork. That will leave all the other growing tips untouched. The WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO is pinch off just the last 1/8 to 1/4 inch of every tip in a section.

Oh, I know that’s what we’ve all been taught to do! But it’s wrong!

You see, it’s the very top end, the growing tip, that provides that strength. Remove that tip, and the entire twig or shoot could die. (Usually does.). So, remove the whole little shoot, back to the junction.

Here is a procumbens nana that was pinched to “make it look good” for the National Shohin Show, back in June. It’s not my tree, and I didn’t pinch it. But I have taken care of it since the show. It looked good at the show (if you could overlook the pinching) it was all green, but as you can see, it’s struggling now. Many of the shoots that were pinched died, whole sections of the tree are really weak!

View attachment 259297

View attachment 259298

View attachment 259296

See all the dead twigs?

Meanwhile, here is the juniper I had in the show. It’s an Itoigawa, so it’s not an axact comparison, but it’s received the exact same aftercare since the show. Which was basically neglect other than full sun and daily, if not twice daily, waterings:

View attachment 259299

See any browning? Any dead twigs? No!!! It’s NEVER been pinched!!! Never! It gets pruned and cut back (not since the Show), and it has some runners starting I will cut back in a couple weeks, but it Never, EVER, gets pinched!

Both trees have been on my bench since the show. They get the same sun, the same water, the same fertilizer. One was pinched, the other wasn’t. Which looks better, healthier?
@Adair M
If one were to Half Bare Root a nursery juniper, would you recommend leaving the runners untouched for a full year?
Just let them run.

Or would there be any benefit to pruning off the runners?

Secondly....
Would you HBR the second half the following year or wait a few years?
If waiting a few years, should any pruning happen in that time, or let it run free the whole time?

Thank you.
 

Adair M

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@Adair M
If one were to Half Bare Root a nursery juniper, would you recommend leaving the runners untouched for a full year?
Just let them run.

Or would there be any benefit to pruning off the runners?

Secondly....
Would you HBR the second half the following year or wait a few years?
If waiting a few years, should any pruning happen in that time, or let it run free the whole time?

Thank you.
Timing is everything. Don’t HBR and prune at the same time. If you HBR in late winter, then the tree produces runners that spring, that means the tree is healthy and happy, and roots are growing. Yes, you can cut back the runners, because you know the roots are growing. No runners, no strong root growth! Runners = strong root growth.

If you get runners after a HBR, then you can do the other side of the HBR the next year. If you get no runners, then wait an extra year.

With runners, let them go for a while before you cut them back. Runners encourage root growth. When you cut them back, you’ll slow root growth. When you see them, check on them from time to time to make sure they’re not overthickening the branch they’re growing on. But it’s generally ok to let them get 6 to 10 inches long before cutting them back.
 

Silentrunning

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I don’t pinch junipers.

Have you ever heard the axiom: “Junipers get their strength from their foliage”? Well, it should be: “Junipers get their strength from their growing tips of foliage”.

If you have to shorten a branch, runner or twig of juniper, cut off what you have to cut off, but cut it off at a fork. That will leave all the other growing tips untouched. The WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU CAN DO is pinch off just the last 1/8 to 1/4 inch of every tip in a section.

Oh, I know that’s what we’ve all been taught to do! But it’s wrong!

You see, it’s the very top end, the growing tip, that provides that strength. Remove that tip, and the entire twig or shoot could die. (Usually does.). So, remove the whole little shoot, back to the junction.

Here is a procumbens nana that was pinched to “make it look good” for the National Shohin Show, back in June. It’s not my tree, and I didn’t pinch it. But I have taken care of it since the show. It looked good at the show (if you could overlook the pinching) it was all green, but as you can see, it’s struggling now. Many of the shoots that were pinched died, whole sections of the tree are really weak!

View attachment 259297

View attachment 259298

View attachment 259296

See all the dead twigs?

Meanwhile, here is the juniper I had in the show. It’s an Itoigawa, so it’s not an exact comparison, but it’s received the exact same aftercare since the show. Which was basically neglect other than full sun and daily, if not twice daily, waterings:

View attachment 259299

See any browning? Any dead twigs? No!!! It’s NEVER been pinched!!! Never! It gets pruned and cut back (not since the Show), and it has some runners starting I will cut back in a couple weeks, but it Never, EVER, gets pinched!

Both trees have been on my bench since the show. They get the same sun, the same water, the same fertilizer. One was pinched, the other wasn’t. Which looks better, healthier?

This post is probably the most helpful thing I will read all day. THANKS!
 

just.wing.it

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Timing is everything. Don’t HBR and prune at the same time. If you HBR in late winter, then the tree produces runners that spring, that means the tree is healthy and happy, and roots are growing. Yes, you can cut back the runners, because you know the roots are growing. No runners, no strong root growth! Runners = strong root growth.

If you get runners after a HBR, then you can do the other side of the HBR the next year. If you get no runners, then wait an extra year.

With runners, let them go for a while before you cut them back. Runners encourage root growth. When you cut them back, you’ll slow root growth. When you see them, check on them from time to time to make sure they’re not overthickening the branch they’re growing on. But it’s generally ok to let them get 6 to 10 inches long before cutting them back.
Great thank you!

I HBR'd one in a large nursery bucket, probably 10gal, this summer.
Been getting strong runners since, and all the foliage looks lush and healthy.

The runners are probably at the 8 inch mark now. With so much room in this container, I'm considering letting it go next year too, with a simple cut back of the runners before next spring.
Then doing the second half of the HBR job in 2021.

That seems safe to me.
I appreciate your input!
 

Mike Corazzi

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Mea culpa. I did pinch a ...few....of the spiky type runners. On the scale foliage all I've ever pinched is the very middle ends to try to divert growth into pad "spread"
What do you do when a juniper goes Bob Marley on you with long runners?

So what's the verdict? Can this one be saved or repotted to get more drainage?

Inclination is to wait til February, but what about now? Just water less?

We're in for a really hot spell coming up.
 

Adair M

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Mea culpa. I did pinch a ...few....of the spiky type runners. On the scale foliage all I've ever pinched is the very middle ends to try to divert growth into pad "spread"
What do you do when a juniper goes Bob Marley on you with long runners?

So what's the verdict? Can this one be saved or repotted to get more drainage?

Inclination is to wait til February, but what about now? Just water less?

We're in for a really hot spell coming up.
You cut back the runners. Click on the link that BVF posted. He illustrated it perfectly.

I’m not sure “drainage” is the issue. If it’s not taking in any water, it may already be dead. Junipers have a way to dying, and just sit there for a couple weeks to months before they start to “look like they’re dying”. But, by then it’s too late.

I can’t tell by looking at the pictures. Withholding water is a sure path to death. A once a day watering isn’t too much water if it’s outside getting some sun.

At this point, put it outside, give it some sun, water daily, and otherwise leave it alone. Never pinch it again.
 

Mike Corazzi

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You cut back the runners. Click on the link that BVF posted. He illustrated it perfectly.

I’m not sure “drainage” is the issue. If it’s not taking in any water, it may already be dead. Junipers have a way to dying, and just sit there for a couple weeks to months before they start to “look like they’re dying”. But, by then it’s too late.

I can’t tell by looking at the pictures. Withholding water is a sure path to death. A once a day watering isn’t too much water if it’s outside getting some sun.

At this point, put it outside, give it some sun, water daily, and otherwise leave it alone. Never pinch it again.
"SOME" sun? It gets full from dawn to about 1. Then mostly shade. I was thinking about taking it off the rack and putting it down by a very healthy BIG juniper on the porch.
It would get ...dappled... sun. And none after 1 PM.

Hate losing this one. It's been with me a long time. 😢
 

bonsaichile

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"SOME" sun? It gets full from dawn to about 1. Then mostly shade. I was thinking about taking it off the rack and putting it down by a very healthy BIG juniper on the porch.
It would get ...dappled... sun. And none after 1 PM.

Hate losing this one. It's been with me a long time. 😢
Your tree does not seem to be dying. Sure, it has some browning due to poor pinching, but it will recover. Just give it full sun and keep watering daily, as @Adair suggested.
 

Adair M

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Your tree does not seem to be dying. Sure, it has some browning due to poor pinching, but it will recover. Just give it full sun and keep watering daily, as @Adair suggested.
I went back and looked at your pictures again. It doesn’t not appear to be dying.

I agree it should be in full sun. I give mine as much as possible. Dawn to dusk!
 
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