Progressing American Bonsai

[A Random User]

I had a serious discussion idea that I though was
an important topic relating to Bonsai, and worth
discussing...


Can I throw this off on a different dirrection ???
See to me, one of the biggest changes I see happening
in American Style which I know has been happening
for some time now... is the getting rid of necessarily
padding everything up on the tree.

Alot of this has changed with our moving to a more
natural looking tree, which does not obviously always
have pads...

This style which the Europeans have been doing for
quite a while, is what I personally think has resulted
in their moving ahead in the Talent pool. While we
were pinching and frantically worrying about front branch
/back branches, and pyramid shapes...

A few things that should be noted with this approach.

1. rougher, collected stock can more easily be turned
into a descent bonsai with this approach. Where as
normally with padding, it would not be acceptable.

2. more brances are left on the tree with this approach,
which not only leads to a much faster recovery time,
allowing even more work to be done on the tree. But,
the trees obviously grow and age faster.

And most importantly...

It also allows for one to often have an almost instant
bonsai with a very finished look, Even though it may
be the tree's first styling.

Some of the trees I am seeing now being created... are
obviously meant to be shown naked, for the branch work is
increditable, and has 5 million branches !!! These are trees
where obviously the negative space in a tree's design...
Is no longer being considered part of the tree.

 

[A Random User]

I know this is kinda a side track from my thread's
intent...

But it's worth it



Punica granatum (Pomegranate)
A rare twisted trunk Pomegranate that is well-designed.
I think by Owen Reich


tree ??? not sure of...
I think by Chauthu Trieukhuc.

 

[KennedyMarx]

European people have some great trees. Walter Pall has some of the best trees I've seen, but I also like the traditional Japanese styles when done properly. I mean not padding deciduous trees as if they were conifers. It depends on the trees shape and profile as to whether a more defines or wild shape for foliage is appropriate.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I know this is kinda a side track from my thread's
intent...

But it's worth it

View attachment 31582

Punica granatum (Pomegranate)
A rare twisted trunk Pomegranate that is well-designed.
I think by Owen Reich

View attachment 31583
tree ??? not sure of...
I think by Chauthu Trieukhuc.

in my opinion, those two trees could stand to be thinned out A LOT.

rarely does a real tree develop that kind of density. They end up looking more like shrubs.

 

[Smoke]

Move away from field trees and post up some pictures of pines and junipers. I think you will find little difference. I see little difference so far between what you posted and what the Japanese have done for centuries.

 

[cmeg1]

I think it is easier(preferable to me)to not make any defined foliage pads.I am only beginning to think of the decision to make my trees with pads or perhaps a more squat,chunky sillouette, concerning my small pines I am making.The squat JBP's seem easier because everything becomes more equal and do not have to worry about getting inner buds to get vigorous on a branch/pad.It is also why I prefer to make zelkova brooms cause' it seems they get denser and denser with only having to worry about a sillouette and not terribly much more aside from defoliation and removal of crossing branches.

 

[JudyB]

So not to be snarky in any way, but does easier=better? I say not. And I don't think that great naturalistic trees are easier in any event. Poorly done trees in any style are just poorly done trees.

 

[A Random User]

So not to be snarky in any way, but does easier=better? I say not. And I don't think that great naturalistic trees are easier in any event. Poorly done trees in any style are just poorly done trees.

Hi Judy... Sorry there is obviously a miss understanding...
When I said easier, I was refering to rough collected stock,
which would usually take a very long time to establish a
more traditional padded tree...

Never said anything about styling natural looking trees,
being easy.

 

[A Random User]

Move away from field trees and post up some pictures of pines and junipers. I think you will find little difference. I see little difference so far between what you posted and what the Japanese have done for centuries.

Understand where you are comming from...
And not saying there is anything new under the sun.

But,
one would have to admit that even with Pines and Junipers
that there is a noticable trend happening...

All one has to do is go back and look at the very formal, often
very stiff feeling trees that the Japanese have been designing
for years, especially when it come to Pines, and there is a noticable
difference with the trees styled today... I think the most distintive
difference would be the movement going on actually, within the tree.

Now I am not saying there isn't Japanese doing these kind of trees...
But even in todays contests these are often still shunned by judges
for the more traditional, and formal trees.

As far as the two images I posted... These had nothing to do with
Bonsai in America, I posted them simply because they corresponded
to a growing trend of the more "modern" bonsai, which is incorporating
alot more branches into the overall design... and pushing the envelope
on the use of negative space...

If you are saying trees like this have been designed for centuries...
Post some pics of proof...

 

[A Random User]

European people have some great trees. Walter Pall has some of the best trees I've seen, but I also like the traditional Japanese styles when done properly. I mean not padding deciduous trees as if they were conifers. It depends on the trees shape and profile as to whether a more defines or wild shape for foliage is appropriate.

I would agree...
I am not saying traditional styled trees are bad at all...

I am just saying that our attitude here in America has been changing
from the styling of every tree into a more traditional style, to a more
natural...

Which I personally believe is really starting to progress our quality
of trees here in America.

 

[A Random User]

I think it is easier(preferable to me)to not make any defined foliage pads.I am only beginning to think of the decision to make my trees with pads or perhaps a more squat,chunky sillouette, concerning my small pines I am making.The squat JBP's seem easier because everything becomes more equal and do not have to worry about getting inner buds to get vigorous on a branch/pad.It is also why I prefer to make zelkova brooms cause' it seems they get denser and denser with only having to worry about a sillouette and not terribly much more aside from defoliation and removal of crossing branches.

Yes, but let us not get confused...
More natural trees do not equal less work.

They still require just as much work, and often
are much more complicated to not only design,
and compose, but they also must come off being
"believeable"....

Sorry, not trying to be mean, just trying to explain
to you cause you said you are still new to bonsai.
But, just letting your trees do what ever they want
is not how one designs a more natural looking tree.

You still have to do all the work you do with padded
trees, like wiring, styling, building ramification,
resolving taper issues, carving deadwood, building
nebari, etc. and the list goes on and on and on...

It just has to look like you didn't do it !!!

 

[A Random User]

in my opinion, those two trees could stand to be thinned out A LOT.

rarely does a real tree develop that kind of density. They end up looking more like shrubs.

I understand...
but this is the great thing about art,
there is something for everyone !!!

 

[JudyB]

Hey Saw, I was actually commenting about what Cmeg said, guess I should've quoted it...

 

[catfish chapstick]

I could be wrong but it's my understanding that America is still playing catch-up to Europe. Sure there are talented people in America, more now than ever, but isn't Europe still one step ahead?

Is that just a myth?

 

[Vance Wood]

I could be wrong but it's my understanding that America is still playing catch-up to Europe. Sure there are talented people in America, more now than ever, but isn't Europe still one step ahead?

Is that just a myth?

More like three or four steps. Considering the quantity and quality of collected material available in America to those of us who can afford it, or are capable of digging it up, we are in general very far behind. Of course there are those who are happy with their bonsai just the way they are and have no wish to take them to a next level, and that's fine. There are those who are struggling in the dark with all sorts of conflicting information and uncertainty who want to make better bonsai but have no clue as what to do.

We in America have just recently and in a general consensus of opinion, become aware of the importance of trunk size and movement, and establishing a balanced profile. We still lack the detail conscious work ethic that makes good bonsai. Many of these detail elements elude us because they have not been taught or demonstrated adequately enough that the knowledge of them has not filtered down to the hobbits, or talented amateur. But; and here is the sad thing: The excuses for not doing them have.

 

[catfish chapstick]

More like three or four steps. Considering the quantity and quality of collected material available in America to those of us who can afford it, or are capable of digging it up, we are in general very far behind. Of course there are those who are happy with their bonsai just the way they are and have no wish to take them to a next level, and that's fine. There are those who are struggling in the dark with all sorts of conflicting information and uncertainty who want to make better bonsai but have no clue as what to do.

We in America have just recently and in a general consensus of opinion, become aware of the importance of trunk size and movement, and establishing a balanced profile. We still lack the detail conscious work ethic that makes good bonsai. Many of these detail elements elude us because they have not been taught or demonstrated adequately enough that the knowledge of them has not filtered down to the hobbits, or talented amateur. But; and here is the sad thing: The excuses for not doing them have.

what is the solution? pay closer attention to the Europeans?

I find Ryan Neil's demos and lectures insightful. Walter Pall is probably my favorite to listen to speak or demo.

Are there things we, in general, need to unlearn?

 

[Vance Wood]

what is the solution? pay closer attention to the Europeans?

I find Ryan Neil's demos and lectures insightful. Walter Pall is probably my favorite to listen to speak or demo.

Are there things we, in general, need to unlearn?

What do we need to unlearn? Boy that's a tough one. I think we have to unlearn a lot of the excuses we have convinced ourselves are axioms. If you find yourself making an excuse understand an excuse is in essence a pass to do nothing, where as a reason is a definition of why something is the way it is, that may or may not be changed.

For myself it is limiting my imagination because the material I have to work with is not what one would call world class. After watching the Graham Potter videos I was made aware of the fact that bad material only exists in your mind. I would say after thinking about your question, refusing to exercise your imagination when people are telling you that your material is bad, is the biggie.

A friend of mine who happens to be a very strong and devoted Christian once fell into a river. Understand he could not swim he immediately sank to the bottom of the river and went into panic mode. Of course he is praying; "God help me, what do I do?" He claims he heard a voice in his head that said stand up and walk out. He did what he thought he heard and found the river was only four feet deep. He stood up and walked out.

So the moral of the story is, most people finding themselves in his predicament would have probably drown because they failed to exercise their imagination. I guess in a word it boils down to resgning oneself to a situation you find yourself in and the conviction you cannot do better to improve that situation or place. You have to want to change the results of what your are doing by believing you can, and doing what is necessary to make those changes.

 

[Poink88]

Vance has advantage of wisdom, character, and experience to say things as he sees it (and I appreciate it). Lacking those doesn't stop me but finding out that more and more, I am pulling punches just because they tend to ricochet back (even if I tell the truth) just because I am a newbie.

There are few posts here by "experts" that I see glaring problems with. To avoid embarrassment (to me and the poster) and out or respect, I usually just stay quiet (as odd that might sound) most of the time.

I think we should be truthful and stop saying; good job, great tree, awesome, etc...if it is not. It is misleading. We should tell how it really is more, even if it will hurts, so that person can move forward rather than repeating the same mistake over and over again. Constructive criticism should always be encouraged.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance has advantage of wisdom, character, and experience to say things as he sees it (and I appreciate it). Lacking those doesn't stop me but finding out that more and more, I am pulling punches just because they tend to ricochet back (even if I tell the truth) just because I am a newbie.

There are few posts here by "experts" that I see glaring problems with. To avoid embarrassment (to me and the poster) and out or respect, I usually just stay quiet (as odd that might sound) most of the time.

I think we should be truthful and stop saying; good job, great tree, awesome, etc...if it is not. It is misleading. We should tell how it really is more, even if it will hurts, so that person can move forward rather than repeating the same mistake over and over again. Constructive criticism should always be encouraged.

Just my 2 cents.

You made some pretty good points. Just because you are a newbie doesn't mean you are blind or stupid. If you find there is a problem there is always the PM route to follow if you are afraid you will embarrass someone, or as is often with me, myself.

 

[berobinson82]

Vance has advantage of wisdom, character, and experience to say things as he sees it (and I appreciate it). Lacking those doesn't stop me but finding out that more and more, I am pulling punches just because they tend to ricochet back (even if I tell the truth) just because I am a newbie.

There are few posts here by "experts" that I see glaring problems with. To avoid embarrassment (to me and the poster) and out or respect, I usually just stay quiet (as odd that might sound) most of the time.

I think we should be truthful and stop saying; good job, great tree, awesome, etc...if it is not. It is misleading. We should tell how it really is more, even if it will hurts, so that person can move forward rather than repeating the same mistake over and over again. Constructive criticism should always be encouraged.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with clarification. I'm a master instructor of Taekwondo. Been at it 25 years. The way I instruct a white belt is far different from a black belt. In my experience, I have to nurture the neophyte much more than I do an experienced student. Good, bad, or indifferent, HOW we criticize may be as important as why.

There's studies showing that a criticism is more likely to be considered if it is following a compliment. So then, "Nice attempt at styling that tree but you've made mistakes" gets a better response than does "You've done this wrong".

I know that may not be the Japanese way, but we ain't in Japan.

Criticisms need never be "brutal" in order to convey ones message.