Progression of Acer palmatum A

[parhamr]

Bleeding has never been a problem for me. I am cautious about other things but not this one.

Do you mean you let them bleed and go along without concern? Or do you mean you do not see bleeding on your maples?

 

[0soyoung]

Egad! It is just a bit of stem pressure. Let it bleed.
The worst that can happen is that there will be a little sugary mess on the outside of the tree and that will readily wash off.

Please explain why this is SO SCARY!!!

 

[Canada Bonsai]

@parhamr sometimes they will bleed, sometimes not, but it never matters.

In the recent Asymmetry podcast (February 28, 2020), Vojtilla comments on how he completely ignores bleeding.

Here is Valavanis on the topic, who also does not fear bleeding at all:

A Japanese Maple forest beginning refinement

SSssshhhh.... Don’t tell anyone, but I’m actually @MACH5 ’s evil twin! (I just don’t have any fashion sense, people skills, real bonsai talent, or hair stylist... otherwise we’re identical!) Come on now, Adair, you're being too hard on yourself. Your hairstyle rocks :)

www.bonsainut.com

Here in Eastern Canada, we literally vacuum the sugar-water right out of maples! For those who happen to know a little french, Stephane Guay is a biologist and leader on the topic of "maple bleeding"! He has done many very interesting experiments on the subject:

Here is a video of his autopsy of a tree that has undergone many many years of forceful extraction of its fluids! As an aside, the CODIT reaction appears no greater than it would be if the prune were execute any other time of year.

L'autopsie d'un érable à sucre: Stéphane vous explique comment il a fait... > Érable & Chalumeaux

Je vous explique comment je procède lorsque je fais une autopsie d'un érable à sucre pour comprendre son historique d'entaillage. Ces arbres ont subi le double entaillage "haut-bas" et je vérifie et mesure, galette par galette, les cicatrices laissées par les trous d'entaille.

www.erable-chalumeaux.ca

And here is his 3D model, designed to help him understand how far the most effective holes should be from each other in order to maximize 'bleeding' (another interesting study on CODIT, I think):

Le sur entaillage révélé via la modélisation 3D de l'autopsie d'érables à sucre! > Érable & Chalumeaux

La simulation 3D nous a permis de constater et comprendre que le sur entaillage mène à une diminution importante du potentiel acéricole d'un érable à sucre à moyen terme.

www.erable-chalumeaux.ca

 

[PiñonJ]

Egad! It is just a bit of stem pressure. Let it bleed.
The worst that can happen is that there will be a little sugary mess on the outside of the tree and that will readily wash off.

Please explain why this is SO SCARY!!!

I can’t argue the point one way, or the other, since my experience with maples is just beginning, but it just seems logical that if a tree is bleeding water and sugar, it is losing resources it could otherwise use. If nothing else, in my desert climate, I wouldn’t be thrilled about the water loss. Peter Warren doesn’t allow them to bleed, though it seems many others do. To turn the question around, would you explain why it’s not scary? Is there more than empirical evidence that it’s not harmful?

 

[parhamr]

Egad! It is just a bit of stem pressure. Let it bleed.
The worst that can happen is that there will be a little sugary mess on the outside of the tree and that will readily wash off.

Please explain why this is SO SCARY!!!

And @Canada Bonsai bleeding on my trees has made for a gummy mess on the trunks. It leaves me with shit to clean up later. Bleeding has also been concurrent to some bacterial infections, so I’ve planned to avoid the overlap of open maple wounds with periods of active fungal and bacterial spores.

It’s just in the sweet spot for this climate to have a lot of infectious issues at this time.

I’ll listen to the latest podcast. Thanks!

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Is there more than empirical evidence that it’s not harmful?

Yes, 60 years of empirical evidence in the garden of @William N. Valavanis

...or you can also look to Japan for multi-generational success!

One thing to keep in mind is that, when it comes to maples, a small loss of resources-if it occurs at all-isn't that big of a deal. The goal is not to grow them big as fast as possible, because you will end up with long internodes, overgrown sections, etc. Referring again to that excellent podcast, Vojtilla explains that he does not fertilize a majority of his maples in the fall or in the spring, specifically because you don't want the gas pedal to the floor when you're growing maples... so if anyone is under the impression that if the tree bleeds a little it will be weakened, they should take advantage of the short internodes

 

[MACH5]

Do you mean you let them bleed and go along without concern? Or do you mean you do not see bleeding on your maples?

Yes, my maples bleed but it's never a concern.

 

[ajm55555]

I agree, I would not hesitate to prune it now. I would be much more worried about fungal infections after late pruning in the Fall.

 

[Maloghurst]

I can’t argue the point one way, or the other, since my experience with maples is just beginning, but it just seems logical that if a tree is bleeding water and sugar, it is losing resources it could otherwise use. If nothing else, in my desert climate, I wouldn’t be thrilled about the water loss. Peter Warren doesn’t allow them to bleed, though it seems many others do. To turn the question around, would you explain why it’s not scary? Is there more than empirical evidence that it’s not harmful?

And @Canada Bonsai bleeding on my trees has made for a gummy mess on the trunks. It leaves me with shit to clean up later. Bleeding has also been concurrent to some bacterial infections, so I’ve planned to avoid the overlap of open maple wounds with periods of active fungal and bacterial spores.

It’s just in the sweet spot for this climate to have a lot of infectious issues at this time.

I’ll listen to the latest podcast. Thanks!

Egad! It is just a bit of stem pressure. Let it bleed.
The worst that can happen is that there will be a little sugary mess on the outside of the tree and that will readily wash off.

Please explain why this is SO SCARY!!!

I always wonder why people who have had no bad experience with bleeding are so adamant about it being no issue.
In my experience most pruning I will do anytime without concern.
Major pruning I have had bad experiences in early spring while sap is moving fast. Compartmentalization can take a lot longer and the cut paste can be impossible to apply correctly. Lot of mess as well.
If I’m cutting back to a node with no visible bud and expect buds to pop then I need to do it when the tree can compartmentalize and not have stem pressure fighting to push water out of the cut site.

I did a hard prune on a crusader hawthorn in early spring. The tree pushed sap out of the cut site for 14 weeks and never recovered and then died. I could not seal the cut and the tree was not able to compartmentalize the wound.
I am certain that if I did this at a better time then the tree would have recovered and pushed new buds off the trunk instead of water out of the cut site.

 

[parhamr]

Thanks for the productive inputs, @Maloghurst and @MACH5.

All: please take process discussion somewhere else. In this thread I’m cataloguing progress on my tree and not looking to debate technique. Thanks!

 

[AlainK]

I did a hard prune on a crusader hawthorn in early spring.

I don't know of "crusader hawthorn" (actually, never heard of this cultivar before), but I think you can trust "Mach5" (and others). The thread is about Japanese maples.

Or you can prune it in June : no bleeding, faster healing.

 

[parhamr]

I made heavy cuts on June 4. Here’s an after shot, but I went a little further on some of those long branches the next day:

 

[AlainK]

Which branch will you choose as a leader, A or B ? My preference goes to A.

First branch on the right : ?1
Much too long, and one must go. Actually, maybe the whole lot could be removed.

Big branch on the back : ?2
From this side, doesn't fit in the design : remove.

 

[parhamr]

With this tree I had been noticing its growth in the 16-inch box was vigorous but with gigantic internodes and without the fine twigs I’ve seen on sibling trees. Having been in the box for four years and not quite showing the progress I wanted I decided to do some heavy root work.


Here’s just a snap of the current state. It’s now in a 21" grow box and I did massive cleanup to the roots. It turns out the interior soil in the core of the roots was still the organic-heavy soil from nine years ago!

I’ll generally let the tree recover this year. There will be some great opportunities for structural work in years to come. I think the lower back branch will be air layered off. I’ll definitely be cutting back to better branching and removing the gigantic internodes. This tree did not make a ton of progress, all told, in the past few years — it’s validation that the right soil and good roots are the foundation from which all other work must build.

 

[parhamr]

This year it looks ready for some heavy structural reduction on that first, lowest branch that is straight for too long. I think the whole thing is coming off, but in stages.

 

[memehongkong]

View attachment 435174

This year it looks ready for some heavy structural reduction on that first, lowest branch that is straight for too long. I think the whole thing is coming off, but in stages.

What is the grand vision you have for this maple?

 

[parhamr]

What is the grand vision you have for this maple?

An informal upright or broom with a generally naturalistic branch structure — upward growing and sophisticated in complexity, but with enough artistic balance, spacing, and visual consistency as to make a pleasing form. Post 34 in this thread has the best front. I am targeting a chuhin size. Over time it may eventually become a larger tree.

I know a lot of people throw around the works of Walter Pall or Dennis Vojtilla, but that’s generally where I’m trying to go. This tree is in the later development stages and not actively in refinement. I’m bulking it up while maintaining viable growths near the trunk.

Overall, in total: more good technique than bad, the right timing for actions, and absolutely focusing on the fundamentals. I think last year I finally got the roots on their true, sustainable course. At present, the main trunk has decent movement and taper; most of the primary branches are well positioned and have decent directionality; there are definitely many poorly positioned, excessively thick, and grotesquely long growths to remove, but that will come as the sustainability of this tree allows. I’ll be moving slowly to reduce chances of ghastly scars and wounds.

 

[Jrmcmich]

Wondering if there is an update on this tree? Like seeing the progression