Progressive Maple Challenge - Amur maple #1 WP

[jeremy_norbury]

...snip...

I am absolutely not of the opinion that it is unfair to start with the best kind of material this you can get. Rather I suggest that this is exactly what you should do. As one can see within only seven months I got a show ready maple bonsai from what was rather raw stock before. This amur maple to my knowledge is arguably one of the best around in Europe. Anyway, I am not aware of a better one. Bragging? No, just stating an observation that puts this into the right light.

When it comes to a real contest in a show eventually all that will count is the tree as it will be then. Nobody cares who made it and how it was made. ...snip...

Exactly, I think this essentially sums up the whole of bonsai goals - the best trees are made from the best starting material, period. There's nothing unfair about it, it still takes skill and dedication to find them and to actually make the final bonsai out of it.

Spending 20 years struggling with poor material will get the grower a 20 year older tree, but not necessarily a better one.

Spend however many years it takes to find the right starting material.

 

[M. Frary]

, it still takes skill and dedication to find them

Let's not forget about money Jerry.

 

[Vin]

The deal here is not to beat the rest of the contestants. It would be outright unfair from my side anyway. The deal here is to show how to possibly win a contest if you really want to.

Referring to another thread I am absolutely not of the opinion that it is unfair to start with the best kind of material this you can get. Rather I suggest that this is exactly what you should do. As one can see within only seven months I got a show ready maple bonsai from what was rather raw stock before. This amur maple to my knowledge is arguably one of the best around in Europe. Anyway, I am not aware of a better one. Bragging? No, just stating an observation that puts this into the right light. Result of superior styling? Not really, rather result of starting with incredibly good material.

When it comes to a real contest in a show eventually all that will count is the tree as it will be then. Nobody cares who made it and how it was made. So how does a 'normal' bonsai person with normal material ever have a chance against this? Well, probably never is the answer. Fair? Who told you that life is fair?

The situation her is similar to the fat junipers which are turned into the ultimate masterpieces within a copuple of years. Whining and crying does not help here. If you want to play the game go for the material. If you cannot, you play in a very different league.

Your response, although frank, is a stern reality check for some... Me included.

 

[Djtommy]

Thank you for posting these updates Walter.

Its a very nice tree but to be honest, the big wound at the front left trunk is something i dont like that much, im wondering if its because of the rather straight line the calus is forming. Is there any plan to work on this?

Grtz,
Tommy

 

[JudyB]

Sheryl Crow said "it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have..."

To some extent, I live by this idea. Of course, I do go as far as I can to obtain the best material that I can get, but I'll never be able to spend the kind of money that wealthy collectors/artists spend. So I do my best to work at the top of what I am able to afford. And realize that there are levels above that I'll never reach. Doesn't mean I can't be happy with what I'm able to do. And work as hard as I'm able on the material I do have, and continue to learn.

 

[coh]

As I said in the other thread...the fact that others can purchase superior material and have it styled by professionals, does not diminish what you have done with your own trees (you in a general sense, not you Judy )

 

[jeremy_norbury]

Let's not forget about money Jerry.

I never mentioned money. Free trees in the mountains (excluding the cost of time and transport) - ask @Walter Pall - he lives in the mountains. Admittedly the Amur was a purchased (or swapped) tree.

 

[jeremy_norbury]

Sheryl Crow said "it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have..."

To some extent, I live by this idea. Of course, I do go as far as I can to obtain the best material that I can get, but I'll never be able to spend the kind of money that wealthy collectors/artists spend. So I do my best to work at the top of what I am able to afford. And realize that there are levels above that I'll never reach. Doesn't mean I can't be happy with what I'm able to do. And work as hard as I'm able on the material I do have, and continue to learn.

Not everyone plays tennis like Djokovic or golf like Tiger (used to) - doesn't mean we can't enjoy a set or a round, does it? As a musician I've felt like giving up numerous times after attending concerts of others - but finally realised I play for myself and make myself happy.

 

[music~maker]

Not everyone plays tennis like Djokovic or golf like Tiger (used to) - doesn't mean we can't enjoy a set or a round, does it? As a musician I've felt like giving up numerous times after attending concerts of others - but finally realised I play for myself and make myself happy.

Couldn't agree more. I was recently out at Dan Robinson's Elandan Gardens, and seeing the scale he was working at was kind of mind-boggling compared to my small back yard. It really had me re-evaluating everything I've been doing for the past 20 years. But then I realized Dan has probably close to 40 years on me, and I do get better and better trees each year, and at some point I will definitely have a bigger back yard. Even if I never reach Dan's scale of operations, I have no doubt that in another 30-40 years I'll have much better trees than I do today.

I get immense pleasure from the small scale I work at now, and I know the trees I've worked on quite well at this point. My motto has always been "work with what you've got, and always seek to improve". For me, the journey has always been a lot more interesting than the destination, and I try to learn something new every year.

 

[Andrew Robson]

That pot looks fabulous with the fall colors!

I totally agree! Love the combo!

 

[Walter Pall]

 

[A Random User]

The deal here is not to beat the rest of the contestants. It would be outright unfair from my side anyway. The deal here is to show how to possibly win a contest if you really want to.

Referring to another thread I am absolutely not of the opinion that it is unfair to start with the best kind of material this you can get. Rather I suggest that this is exactly what you should do. As one can see within only seven months I got a show ready maple bonsai from what was rather raw stock before. This amur maple to my knowledge is arguably one of the best around in Europe. Anyway, I am not aware of a better one. Bragging? No, just stating an observation that puts this into the right light. Result of superior styling? Not really, rather result of starting with incredibly good material.

When it comes to a real contest in a show eventually all that will count is the tree as it will be then. Nobody cares who made it and how it was made. So how does a 'normal' bonsai person with normal material ever have a chance against this? Well, probably never is the answer. Fair? Who told you that life is fair?

The situation her is similar to the fat junipers which are turned into the ultimate masterpieces within a copuple of years. Whining and crying does not help here. If you want to play the game go for the material. If you cannot, you play in a very different league.

Yes, but Walter you are missing one thing... art is about being creative, is it not? It is then possible to be able then to over come these obstacles of not having the best material if one is creative.

 

[Andrew Robson]

The situation her is similar to the fat junipers which are turned into the ultimate masterpieces within a copuple of years. Whining and crying does not help here. If you want to play the game go for the material. If you cannot, you play in a very different league.

Walter, I agree with you. My father and I have decided to buy one nice tree a year from here on out, rather than getting lots of smaller stuff that will equate to nothing. We bought our first tree big purchase tree from Randy Knight at the Artisans Cup, and are really looking forward to developing it over time!

My question to you is, do you think size matters in this game you are talking about? Can a small tree that is killer material compete with a massive tree that is killer material, in your opinion?

 

[Walter Pall]

Andrew,

small trees have a difficult time to compete against large ones. There is a reason why 95 % of all wining trees in big shows are large trees. If impressiveness is the deciding factor then it's understandable why a large tree is more impressive than a small tree simply by size. A smaller tree has to be much better than that large tree to be competitive. Again: fair? NO. Who told you life is fair.

Seagrass,

art must be creative - otherwise it is not art.But in our art material is crucial for success. I hammer this truth home until you cannot hear it anymore. Mediocre and poor material is ONLY good for learning and n the beginning. When yo0u start to become serious you should get rid of this , clean our collection of more than 80% of all hopeless trees and start a second collection. Good people have done this three or four times.

 

[A Random User]

Sorry Walter... but you are going to have to hammer it home a bit more...

See, the reason why I ask, is that I actually have quite a bit of impressive material, that is in stages of being worked and refined.
Yet to be honest with you, I think that even though this material might be impressive, I actually think that a lot of the work I have been creating from
mediocre or bad material has much more meaning and is visually more interesting to look at, not to mention they are taking on a life and are telling a story. Which my other trees are not... just looking good. How can this be?

Am I to throw out my good material in favor of my Bad? Of course not... I am not trying to give you a hard time. My point was with the other thread you mentioned in passing, was that, what is it that determines great material?

You have suggested that this Maple that you have posted here is prime example of good material. I happen to like it as well, because for me it has character and in all actuality has a lot of what some would call flaws... to me this is what in all actuality is probably giving the character to the tree, Right? Which is why you as well as myself probably appreciate it... we understand and look for the character in a piece of material because it shows "life".

For others the flaws in this tree are sticking points, and they would probably pass and say this is not at all, good material. Why would they do this... because for some perhaps they are not looking for the life within the tree, but are instead perhaps looking for a pristine image of a perfect tree. For some their is godliness in the form of true perfection, and the obtainment of this true perfection... to these folks this perfection is the true Art. So, just with these two instances their are conflicting thoughts of what makes good material.

Is one suppose to go out and obtain the best material to make the pristine tree, or as in the case of your tree... look for one with what those looking for the pristine tree would say are flaws? Then one needs to ask, how many flaws are acceptable? And where does one draw the line between what is now acceptable and what is not? Seems that this answer would be one of personal choice and personal preference, right?

If this is to be the case, than there is a whole area open for interpretation of what makes a good piece of material... you and I might like something others might hate. If Bonsai is an Art, and I am creating a piece of art... what then works for me is not necessarily the quality of a piece of material others might enjoy, but instead the quality of a piece of material that I enjoy, and that I as an Artist feel, can best portray the story that I am wishing to tell.

 

[Cadillactaste]

^^^ sort of falls back on my saying...what brings me joy on my bench...others may see mediocre. Sentimental of bringing forth something out of nothing appeals to some. Nothing wrong with that...but, I also see the meaning behind Mr. Pall's statement.

 

[Andrew Robson]

art must be creative - otherwise it is not art.But in our art material is crucial for success. I hammer this truth home until you cannot hear it anymore. Mediocre and poor material is ONLY good for learning and n the beginning. When yo0u start to become serious you should get rid of this , clean our collection of more than 80% of all hopeless trees and start a second collection. Good people have done this three or four times.

Walter I totally agree with you. Thank you for saying this, as I think it's important for many people to hear. Like I said earlier, my dad and I are trying to weed out our lesser trees and add one really nice tree a year to our collection. I've heard a lot of people are starting to do the same, post artisans cup.

 

[Andrew Robson]

^^^ sort of falls back on my saying...what brings me joy on my bench...others may see mediocre. Sentimental of bringing forth something out of nothing appeals to some. Nothing wrong with that...but, I also see the meaning behind Mr. Pall's statement.

There are some trees that I will never get rid of because of what you're saying. They'll never be artisan cup level material, but they bring me joy, so I continue to work them. However, these trees will ideally be about 30% of my collection.

 

[coh]

Ah, the real reason for the Artisans Cup becomes clear...convince everyone that their trees suck and they need to buy better material - in particular, big western collected trees. And conveniently, those running the Artisans Cup happen to be the main providers of such material in the U.S. Brilliant!

Only kidding! Or am I?

Walter can keep hammering home his point about starting material, but a lot of people seem to forget that everyone does bonsai for different reasons and it's not one size fits all. Obviously if you want to "compete" in future Artisans Cup events you'll have to play by those rules. But no one says you have to go that route.

 

[Cadillactaste]

There are some trees that I will never get rid of because of what you're saying. They'll never be artisan cup level material, but they bring me joy, so I continue to work them. However, these trees will ideally be about 30% of my collection.

Nothing wrong with that...though I never aspire to have material to the level of the artisan cup. I just don't have the time or funds to take me there. Nothing is near me for classes. Though...I'm tempted to drive two hours for one some day. Just for the experience and what it would bring to my table so to speak. But...I also am trying to be selective in my purchases. Though...with ones with quality pieces of the A-cup...my pieces no doubt will always be mediocre at best. But in my mind's eye...they have good bones. Which do bring me joy. The journey and the joy it brings...in my own heart is where I'm at at this stage of my life.

Kudos to you for wanting more! But...in the same sense. Can appreciate your having a few that are sentimental and bring you nothing but joy. At the end of the day...it's worth it.